I'm not certain who did what but I heard that it was always up to "the old man"...

when was the last bunch of made guys in the windy city?

Good question... for someone far more knowledgeable than me.

dont look at this skinny guinea.lol.

just kidding.lol. im about as skinny as rosie o donnell.lol.

or is it 'donald'?fucking micks.

The Irish guys at work have a saying... "Never trust an Italian with a waist size under 38 inches."

well there you go,im a '40'.lol.

I heard that!

It's pretty much the same thing. The feds are going to cite the most recent information they have. The statement they made sounded like it was present tense...

"We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area."



I'm aware of all this. In fact, I'm the one who has repeatedly cited all this on one forum or another.

The 1997 figure of 70 members was simply an estimate by the CCC.

A poster over on the RD talked about a list of 47 names of Outfit members the FBI released to the local press in 1999. That figure appears to be more exact than the CCC estimate and should probably hold more weight.

50 members were cited by FBI sources in articles in 2000 and 2002. Probably a rounded number close to that more exact 47 figure from 1999.

25 members was cited in a 2005 article and 30 members was cited in a 2007 article. The more specific (i.e. not rounded) figure of 28 members was also cited in 2007.

Despite some discrepancy along the way, I see consistency in the fact that the FBI apparently had a list of 47 specific names in 1999. From that time to 2007, 18 known members had died and 1 had flipped = leaving 28 members.

That 60 members figure was in a small blurb by Chicago Sun Times writer covering the Family Secrets trial. Considering the fact that it's double the information from the FBI, I'm inclined to think that the guy was using "members" in the generic sense, as journalists often do when writing about the mob.



True but it's likely a small number. There's not much of a chance of a third of the family successfully flying under the radar.



There are a number of possibilities as to why there are reportedly only 25-30 made members in the Outfit. But in the end, the total manpower is comparative to the families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia. The member-to-associate ratio is just a little different in Chicago.

Not that I put much stock in associate estimates put if we're comparing apples to apples...



Others have commented that it was probably Aiuppa.



A guy on the RD said Marcello held a ceremony in 2003 and Sarno had one in 2009. Not sure about the source on that but it's possible. What I take exception to is people using this as a reason to just add an additional 10, 20, or 30 guys to the Outfit's membership. People take those kind of liberties and, before you know it, all sorts of numbers are being quoted and they're eventually taken as fact through sheer repetition.

My assesment on the Outfit is like Ivy's: small in manpower (if you don't count associates) but stronger in terms of rackets and overall power. You can't tell me the skeleton crews running the New England and Philadelphia families carry more clout than John DiFronzo and his goons. They own one of the largest waste hauling companies in Chicago, probably have some Union pull (not much), still do the usual loansharking, gambling, etc, extortion, offshore Casino's and other legit stuff. And though they are nowhere NEAR as powerful as they were even ten years ago, it's my understanding they are more solidly entrenched in Chicago than in Boston, Philly or NJ. To me they are the most viable family outside of New York.

Two telling statements are in the article below. After the Family Secrets case, Ronald Goldstock, former director of the New York State OC task force, said "What you're seeing now in Chicago and elsewhere are mopping-up operations."

Another part of the article says, "Veteran mob watchers in Chicago say that city's criminal organization has not yet plunged to the Philadelphia organization's level."

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/28/nation/na-mob28


While I would also put Outfit above those other families, I wouldn't put it way above. There's not just similarity in terms of total manpower and scope of operations. If you look at the Chicago mob cases over the last decade, and compare them to New England or Philadelphia, they're remarkably similar. Much more similar than to the New York families, which goes against the perception some still have that Chicago is almost like the sixth family, i.e. on the level of the NY families.

Good article Ivy. And no doubt Chicago isn't the sixth Family, I would just say due to the fact that the Outfit was so powerful in the past it can still wield a small bit of that power. But not much. The heaviest thing in the ongoing Philly trial is probably the fact that Uncle Joe ripped off a Teamsters health pension fund. That's small potatoes compared to what DiFronzo has under his belt.

I'm no fanboy. It interests me of course. But while they aren't New York's level anymore, you can still put them above Philly and New England IMO. Still enough going on and enough structure to put them a hair above the rest going on outside of NYC.

NJ, Philly, and New England are not even close to be as powerful as Chicago. Might be closer in numbers but like joeschmo said they have more power.

What makes Chicago so much more "powerful" than those other families?

They have more members/associates, full administration, and not any trials/arrests like the other families.

That's not necessarily all correct Nicky. Membership is about the same and more trials and arrests often indicates that a Family is active and going strong in organized crime. That's why we know New York is nowhere near being done.

The one thing you have to consider is that the more powerful and active you consider the Outfit, you have to believe in direct proportion in the absolute failure of law enforcement to prosecute it for anything.

I don't have the time to go back and make sure this is exactly correct, but I think Sarno was busted for activity pre-2004. I don't believe any of the malfeasance in Family Secrets took place before 2000 or maybe early 2000s.

So beyond that as far as I know of what you could consider prosecutions of the Outfit, you have Fratto and Szaflarski.

IMO you either have to give the Outfit a lot of credit for becoming far smarter and more elusive or say that law enforcement is doing an abysmal job at every level.

In decades past Outfit prosecutions seemed to happen with far more frequency. And certainly incidents of probable Outfit violence happened with far, far greater frequency. (We all know they toned the violence way down, but still.)

no with the arrests I was saying that Chicago still has the administration and capos active and not in jail but the other families have had their administration pretty much wiped out

It's actually the exact opposite.

By that way of thinking one could argue families in Cleveland, Tampa, or Los Angles have also been more adept at avoiding law enforcement, since there's little to nothing in the way of mob cases there anymore.

More activity = more indictments

Less activity = less indictments

Some people on the forums will try to argue one family or another is unique and the above doesn't apply but I've never bought into it.

That is my point; sorry if it wasn't clear.

I forgot about Anthony Calabrese btw.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood.

On another note, the FBI had two squads investigating the Outfit in the 1990's - one investigating the South Side/26th Street crew and one investigating the Cicero/Melrose Park crew. It reportedly now has one squad which investigates the Outfit, in addition to other OC cases.

The lack of trials/arrests is more likely to be evidence of "not doing anything" than evidence of anything else. I'm not sure why you're citing it as evidence of strength.

The only thing that I can perceive that the Outfit has over the other small families is that its members seem to have more impressive legitimate business portfolios than the guys in NE and Philly. I don't really see any evidence for superiority in any other respect. But investing criminal proceeds into legitimate businesses and then assimilating into the mainstream of American society and keeping your kids out of the rackets is what kills off mob families - that phenomenon is just as lethal to the mob as RICO in my opinion.

Chicago still has the clout down at City Hall. Former mayor Richie M's friend Freddy B. was the former driver for LaPietra, blew up a restaurant, and had juice loans yet the mayor said he knew nothing about that. In last couple of years Freddy sold his trucking companies which had all the city contracts for $100 million. THAT IS 100 million.Real estate developer Tommy DiPiazza bought property for 50k and sold it back to the city of Chicago for 1.1 million. Not a bad return. Both of those guys paid cash for their 10,000 square foot places in Marco Island. Must be nice. This is all public knowledge as well. New mayor yet nothing has changed in city hall.

That doesn't surprise me; I know in general they dedicate a lot more sources to terrorism these days.

[quote=FriedRavioliFarts]

I don't think anyone is arguing it's completely dead... just hugely diminished in many or our eyes.

This is a very hard argument to counter IMO.

You also have to look at the complete lack of violence. I understand the Outfit deciding to be far less violent, but still hard to see how it functions with almost no violence.

And if they were out there breaking peoples' legs etc. I believe the media would get wind of at least some of it.

None of the mob families are very violent today. And if someones legs get broke it wouldn't be a big news story.

You gotta let it go, Nicky. You were born too late. End of story. What's the big fucking deal?

What are you talking about?

hes saying that like other younger guys on here and elsewhere,you give guys the impression your 'rooting' for these guys. i understand the feeling perfectly well,so does pizza i believe. we both grew up just about in 'the thick' of it as you can get with out being made,dead or in jai.but you,being younger were born at a time when 'this thing' is going downhill. it will never be what it once was,and thats all there is.