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Mikey and Fredo #6746
02/12/04 11:34 PM
02/12/04 11:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
C
Capo Status Offline OP
Wiseguy
Capo Status  Offline OP
C
Wiseguy
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
at what point did Mike know it was Fredo who betrayed him?


...in my HOME!
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6747
02/12/04 11:50 PM
02/12/04 11:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Quote
Originally posted by Capo Status:
at what point did Mike know it was Fredo who betrayed him?
When they were in the Nightclub watching the exotic show, Geary asks Fredo how he knows about the place, and Fredo replies that " Johnny Ola knows these places like the back of his hand!"
At that moment watch Mike's reaction, the sickening look that he gets on his face realizing that his own brother set him up for the hit at the Nevada compound. (Earlier Mike had introduced Ola to Fredo and Ola says " We never met!") Then Mike turns and looks at his bodyguard and the bodyguard then leaves the club to go and kill Ola and Roth. Another great piece of acting by Pacino, not saying one word, but just by his facial expressions you know exactly how he is feeling inside.

Don Cardi cool



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Mikey and Fredo #6748
02/12/04 11:55 PM
02/12/04 11:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
C
Capo Status Offline OP
Wiseguy
Capo Status  Offline OP
C
Wiseguy
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
thanks for the feedback, but i was wondering about when Fredo came into Havana or whatever and asked Mikey if he would know of anyone in town, and Mike says "i dunno, Johnny Ola or Hyman Roth" it seems Mike already knew, by the tone of his voice. what do you think?


...in my HOME!
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6749
02/13/04 12:15 AM
02/13/04 12:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone Offline
Underboss
Don Sonny Corleone  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Quote
Originally posted by Capo Status:
but i was wondering about when Fredo came into Havana and asked Mikey if he would know of anyone in town, and Mike says "i dunno, Johnny Ola or Hyman Roth" it seems Mike already knew, by the tone of his voice. what do you think?
Yeah Mike had already figured it out by then, but like with Carlo, he wanted to be absolutely sure before he made his move. Fredo was blood, after all.


If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6750
02/13/04 05:41 AM
02/13/04 05:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 292
Dunfermline, Scotland
The Scottish Don Offline
Capo
The Scottish Don  Offline
Capo
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 292
Dunfermline, Scotland
Indeed.

Remember Mike had already told Tom that he knew that someone on the inside, someone in the family, had betrayed him.

That narrowed it down, so the finger of suspicion was over just a few people and one of them was Fredo. He then dug his own grave with his lying over Johnny Ola.

Re: Mikey and Fredo #6751
02/13/04 12:40 PM
02/13/04 12:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Michael was obviously crushed when, in the nightclub, Fredo confirmed that he was the traitor. But I believe that Michael suspected that Fredo might be the traitor before the nightclub scene. Watch how he looks at Fredo in two scenes: in the hotel room, when Fredo asks if anyone he knows is in Havana; and at the Yolanda show, when he "introduces" Fredo to Johnny Ola.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6752
02/13/04 09:26 PM
02/13/04 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
C
Capo Status Offline OP
Wiseguy
Capo Status  Offline OP
C
Wiseguy
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
not hiding out in the bronx
thank you guys for the help.


...in my HOME!
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6753
02/16/04 06:14 AM
02/16/04 06:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 214
Bella_Dana Offline
Made Member
Bella_Dana  Offline
Made Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 214
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
Michael was obviously crushed when, in the nightclub, Fredo confirmed that he was the traitor. But I believe that Michael suspected that Fredo might be the traitor before the nightclub scene. Watch how he looks at Fredo in two scenes: in the hotel room, when Fredo asks if anyone he knows is in Havana; and at the Yolanda show, when he "introduces" Fredo to Johnny Ola.
yeah true, i think he thought it could be fredo but i think also that he might hoped that it wouldnt be fredo so he waited to make sure that he was it.

Re: Mikey and Fredo #6754
02/16/04 09:20 AM
02/16/04 09:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 298
North London
Bella Mafia UK Offline
Capo
Bella Mafia UK  Offline
Capo
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 298
North London
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
Michael was obviously crushed when, in the nightclub, Fredo confirmed that he was the traitor. But I believe that Michael suspected that Fredo might be the traitor before the nightclub scene. Watch how he looks at Fredo in two scenes: in the hotel room, when Fredo asks if anyone he knows is in Havana; and at the Yolanda show, when he "introduces" Fredo to Johnny Ola.
I agree with you about this, but what do you think made Michael suspect Fredo - obviously there were only a limited number of suspects, but there were a lot of flunkeys and hangers-on in the compound who could have helped with the hit on Michael. Michael suspected Fredo was invloved, but why??


...there's people who would pay a lot of money for that information. But then your daughter would lose a father..instead of gaining a husband.
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6755
02/16/04 02:36 PM
02/16/04 02:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 210
cannoli Offline
Made Member
cannoli  Offline
Made Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 210
Michael was always two and three steps ahead of everyone else in his thinking. I'm sure he'd already considered the prospect of Freddie having been humiliated by being passed over by his "kid brother," and having been put in his place, back in GFI, by his younger brother in front of Moe Green. I'm sure Michael figured out that Freddie was a weak person, not exceptionally bright, and certainly prime fodder to be coaxed into betraying the family -- or at least compromising it.


"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6756
02/16/04 03:01 PM
02/16/04 03:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 64
Ireland
Accardo Offline
Button
Accardo  Offline
Button
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 64
Ireland
Also watch Mikes face when they're having their drinks. Fredo says something like "why couldn't we have done this before" and Mike realises that Fredo might be feeling guilty about his role in the betrayal. There is a stern look on his face when Fredo says this.


"Can't you give me a straight answer anymore?"
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6757
02/16/04 09:12 PM
02/16/04 09:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone Offline
Underboss
Don Sonny Corleone  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Definatly in that scene he knows Fredo is feeling guilty about something. Kinda makes you wonder if Mike wouldnt have killed him if Fredo would have just come out and said he set it up.
Mike-Can you keep a secret?
Fredo-Yeah sure


If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6758
02/16/04 10:17 PM
02/16/04 10:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker Offline
Capo
EnzoBaker  Offline
Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
The final test comes at the Nevada house where Michael is trying to get info out of Fredo for the Senate hearing.

Michael could forgive Fredo for being stupid, that's just the way he was. He could put up with Fredo being easily manipulated by simply keeping him out of important family business.

But when Fredo went into his rant about "that's not the way I wanted it!!!", Michael knew that Fredo would always be dissatisfied with the pecking order within the family and always be looking to "get something for himself."

(That's also why, IMO, he put Tom Hagen 'to the test' several times in GF II -- to see if Tom had any ambitions himself to assume the leading role in the family, because if he did, then he would be a threat to Michael and would have to be gotten rid of. To me, this was one of the crucial issues that SHOULD have been covered in GF III -- whether Hagen had ambitions to replace Michael -- but Duvall refusing to sign on and the decision to write out Hagen made that impossible.)

Anyway, in the Nevada house scene, when Michael asks Fredo if there's anything more he can tell him, Fredo tells him the inconsequential piece of information that Questadt the Senate lawyer is on Roth's payroll -- something that Michael was undoubtedly already perfectly aware of.

He had already made up his mind that Fredo had to go - the scene at the Havana sex club and then the Judas kiss at the New Year's party were clear indications of that - but this was Michael giving Fredo one last chance to save himself if he came clean.

Fredo of course knew what had happened with Carlo and probably figured he was a goner anyway, but I really think, had he come clean and told Michael everything, Michael would have let him off. Carlo was an in-law, and a scuzzy one at that; Fredo was blood.

But instead, Fredo just tried to feed him a baloney sandwich while still protecting his contacts with Roth.

At that moment, Michael knew Fredo was still holding out on him and would always be a danger to him. That's the moment Fredo's fate was sealed.


"You did good."
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6759
02/16/04 10:54 PM
02/16/04 10:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,393
Tampa, Florida
johnny ola Offline
Underboss
johnny ola  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,393
Tampa, Florida
Quote
Originally posted by EnzoBaker:
The final test comes at the Nevada house where Michael is trying to get info out of Fredo for the Senate hearing.

Michael could forgive Fredo for being stupid, that's just the way he was. He could put up with Fredo being easily manipulated by simply keeping him out of important family business.

But when Fredo went into his rant about "that's not the way I wanted it!!!", Michael knew that Fredo would always be dissatisfied with the pecking order within the family and always be looking to "get something for himself."

(That's also why, IMO, he put Tom Hagen 'to the test' several times in GF II -- to see if Tom had any ambitions himself to assume the leading role in the family, because if he did, then he would be a threat to Michael and would have to be gotten rid of. To me, this was one of the crucial issues that SHOULD have been covered in GF III -- whether Hagen had ambitions to replace Michael -- but Duvall refusing to sign on and the decision to write out Hagen made that impossible.)

Anyway, in the Nevada house scene, when Michael asks Fredo if there's anything more he can tell him, Fredo tells him the inconsequential piece of information that Questadt the Senate lawyer is on Roth's payroll -- something that Michael was undoubtedly already perfectly aware of.

He had already made up his mind that Fredo had to go - the scene at the Havana sex club and then the Judas kiss at the New Year's party were clear indications of that - but this was Michael giving Fredo one last chance to save himself if he came clean.

Fredo of course knew what had happened with Carlo and probably figured he was a goner anyway, but I really think, had he come clean and told Michael everything, Michael would have let him off. Carlo was an in-law, and a scuzzy one at that; Fredo was blood.

But instead, Fredo just tried to feed him a baloney sandwich while still protecting his contacts with Roth.

At that moment, Michael knew Fredo was still holding out on him and would always be a danger to him. That's the moment Fredo's fate was sealed.
Damn good post Enzo, hard to believe you are just a recent addition to our little board. Looking forward to seeing more of your posts. wink


I love my Chrysler and tuna fish sandwiches.
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6760
02/17/04 12:46 AM
02/17/04 12:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 701
Connecticut
Don Lights Offline
Underboss
Don Lights  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 701
Connecticut
very good post and provides plenty of good insight in the entire situation. I agree completely with all that Enzo has psoted about the Fredo and Michael relationship.

Re: Mikey and Fredo #6761
03/02/04 11:28 AM
03/02/04 11:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3
North America
Self Made Man Offline
Associate
Self Made Man  Offline
Associate
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3
North America
Quote
Originally posted by EnzoBaker:
Fredo of course knew what had happened with Carlo and probably figured he was a goner anyway, but I really think, had he come clean and told Michael everything, Michael would have let him off. Carlo was an in-law, and a scuzzy one at that; Fredo was blood.

But instead, Fredo just tried to feed him a baloney sandwich while still protecting his contacts with Roth.

At that moment, Michael knew Fredo was still holding out on him and would always be a danger to him. That's the moment Fredo's fate was sealed.
I agree with this, but I wonder; did Fredo actually have any information that could have pacified Michael? Fredo's attitude didn't help one bit, but what facts could he have told Michael to help?


SELF
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6762
03/02/04 04:47 PM
03/02/04 04:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker Offline
Capo
EnzoBaker  Offline
Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
Quote
Originally posted by Self Made Man:
I agree with this, but I wonder; did Fredo actually have any information that could have pacified Michael? Fredo's attitude didn't help one bit, but what facts could he have told Michael to help?
Well, if Fredo told him all the details how Roth had contacted him and given the info how Pentangeli was delivered over to the Feds, that might have been enough. But on the other hand I don't think the specific information was as important as Fredo going into the 'It's not the way I wanted it!! I was stepped over!!" rant. Because Michael knew that nothing was ever going to change that.

Had Fredo been anybody else he'd have been whacked years before - probably after the hit attempt on Vito (Sonny got rid of Paulie with a snap of his fingers after that, even though Fredo was just as much or more reponsible for allowing the attack) and maybe after the episode at the hotel with Moe Greene.

Most Corleone associates didn't get the courtesy of a warning never to take sides against the family again - for most of them it was one warning and lights out.

But Fredo was Michael's brother and he tried to avoid dealing with the problem. I think part of the motivation behind having Michael get rid of Fredo was to show that if pushed to the limit, he would get rid of ANYBODY, so if in GF III a conflict arose between Michael and Tom Hagen, or Michael and Kay, you would get the feeling "if this goes far enough Michael is capable of killing them."


"You did good."
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6763
03/02/04 09:48 PM
03/02/04 09:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15
chicago
atownplaya Offline
Wiseguy
atownplaya  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15
chicago
in the godfather even don vito his father said fredo was the weak one in the family

Re: Mikey and Fredo #6764
03/03/04 04:40 AM
03/03/04 04:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker Offline
Capo
EnzoBaker  Offline
Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
Quote
Originally posted by atownplaya:
in the godfather even don vito his father said fredo was the weak one in the family
Right, that's even established in the flashback sequences of GFII that Fredo was a weak and sickly baby. Clearly that was meant as a foreshadowing scene to what would happen later in his life.


"You did good."
Re: Mikey and Fredo #6765
05/05/04 08:09 AM
05/05/04 08:09 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552
London
The Hollywood Finochio Offline
The Don
The Hollywood Finochio  Offline
The Don
Underboss
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552
London
Of course Mike suspected Fredo, thats why he asked him to bring the $2 million in the first place, to get him there and get the truth, thats why he coldly suggests they spend some time together, Freddie thinks his brother is finally showing him some attention when really he is trying to get Fredo to make a mistake, which he eventually did at superman. I think the near confirmation was when he says 'i was mad at you... why didnt we spend time like this before!' its so obvious after that, i still believe Fredo could have been forgiven and did not intend his brother to be wiped out. And i dont think its fair to label Fredo's speech about being 'stepped over' as a rant, i could fully feel and understand his resentment, it had been bottled up for years and finally came exploding out, fantastic stuff.

Good thread which for once doesnt ridicule Fredo, its shows he was a damn GREAT character


Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please

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