at what point did Mike know it was Fredo who betrayed him?

When they were in the Nightclub watching the exotic show, Geary asks Fredo how he knows about the place, and Fredo replies that " Johnny Ola knows these places like the back of his hand!"
At that moment watch Mike's reaction, the sickening look that he gets on his face realizing that his own brother set him up for the hit at the Nevada compound. (Earlier Mike had introduced Ola to Fredo and Ola says " We never met!") Then Mike turns and looks at his bodyguard and the bodyguard then leaves the club to go and kill Ola and Roth. Another great piece of acting by Pacino, not saying one word, but just by his facial expressions you know exactly how he is feeling inside.

Don Cardi

thanks for the feedback, but i was wondering about when Fredo came into Havana or whatever and asked Mikey if he would know of anyone in town, and Mike says "i dunno, Johnny Ola or Hyman Roth" it seems Mike already knew, by the tone of his voice. what do you think?

Yeah Mike had already figured it out by then, but like with Carlo, he wanted to be absolutely sure before he made his move. Fredo was blood, after all.

Indeed.

Remember Mike had already told Tom that he knew that someone on the inside, someone in the family, had betrayed him.

That narrowed it down, so the finger of suspicion was over just a few people and one of them was Fredo. He then dug his own grave with his lying over Johnny Ola.

Michael was obviously crushed when, in the nightclub, Fredo confirmed that he was the traitor. But I believe that Michael suspected that Fredo might be the traitor before the nightclub scene. Watch how he looks at Fredo in two scenes: in the hotel room, when Fredo asks if anyone he knows is in Havana; and at the Yolanda show, when he "introduces" Fredo to Johnny Ola.

thank you guys for the help.

yeah true, i think he thought it could be fredo but i think also that he might hoped that it wouldnt be fredo so he waited to make sure that he was it.

I agree with you about this, but what do you think made Michael suspect Fredo - obviously there were only a limited number of suspects, but there were a lot of flunkeys and hangers-on in the compound who could have helped with the hit on Michael. Michael suspected Fredo was invloved, but why??

Michael was always two and three steps ahead of everyone else in his thinking. I'm sure he'd already considered the prospect of Freddie having been humiliated by being passed over by his "kid brother," and having been put in his place, back in GFI, by his younger brother in front of Moe Green. I'm sure Michael figured out that Freddie was a weak person, not exceptionally bright, and certainly prime fodder to be coaxed into betraying the family -- or at least compromising it.

Also watch Mikes face when they're having their drinks. Fredo says something like "why couldn't we have done this before" and Mike realises that Fredo might be feeling guilty about his role in the betrayal. There is a stern look on his face when Fredo says this.

Definatly in that scene he knows Fredo is feeling guilty about something. Kinda makes you wonder if Mike wouldnt have killed him if Fredo would have just come out and said he set it up.
Mike-Can you keep a secret?
Fredo-Yeah sure

The final test comes at the Nevada house where Michael is trying to get info out of Fredo for the Senate hearing.

Michael could forgive Fredo for being stupid, that's just the way he was. He could put up with Fredo being easily manipulated by simply keeping him out of important family business.

But when Fredo went into his rant about "that's not the way I wanted it!!!", Michael knew that Fredo would always be dissatisfied with the pecking order within the family and always be looking to "get something for himself."

(That's also why, IMO, he put Tom Hagen 'to the test' several times in GF II -- to see if Tom had any ambitions himself to assume the leading role in the family, because if he did, then he would be a threat to Michael and would have to be gotten rid of. To me, this was one of the crucial issues that SHOULD have been covered in GF III -- whether Hagen had ambitions to replace Michael -- but Duvall refusing to sign on and the decision to write out Hagen made that impossible.)

Anyway, in the Nevada house scene, when Michael asks Fredo if there's anything more he can tell him, Fredo tells him the inconsequential piece of information that Questadt the Senate lawyer is on Roth's payroll -- something that Michael was undoubtedly already perfectly aware of.

He had already made up his mind that Fredo had to go - the scene at the Havana sex club and then the Judas kiss at the New Year's party were clear indications of that - but this was Michael giving Fredo one last chance to save himself if he came clean.

Fredo of course knew what had happened with Carlo and probably figured he was a goner anyway, but I really think, had he come clean and told Michael everything, Michael would have let him off. Carlo was an in-law, and a scuzzy one at that; Fredo was blood.

But instead, Fredo just tried to feed him a baloney sandwich while still protecting his contacts with Roth.

At that moment, Michael knew Fredo was still holding out on him and would always be a danger to him. That's the moment Fredo's fate was sealed.

Damn good post Enzo, hard to believe you are just a recent addition to our little board. Looking forward to seeing more of your posts.

very good post and provides plenty of good insight in the entire situation. I agree completely with all that Enzo has psoted about the Fredo and Michael relationship.

I agree with this, but I wonder; did Fredo actually have any information that could have pacified Michael? Fredo's attitude didn't help one bit, but what facts could he have told Michael to help?

Well, if Fredo told him all the details how Roth had contacted him and given the info how Pentangeli was delivered over to the Feds, that might have been enough. But on the other hand I don't think the specific information was as important as Fredo going into the 'It's not the way I wanted it!! I was stepped over!!" rant. Because Michael knew that nothing was ever going to change that.

Had Fredo been anybody else he'd have been whacked years before - probably after the hit attempt on Vito (Sonny got rid of Paulie with a snap of his fingers after that, even though Fredo was just as much or more reponsible for allowing the attack) and maybe after the episode at the hotel with Moe Greene.

Most Corleone associates didn't get the courtesy of a warning never to take sides against the family again - for most of them it was one warning and lights out.

But Fredo was Michael's brother and he tried to avoid dealing with the problem. I think part of the motivation behind having Michael get rid of Fredo was to show that if pushed to the limit, he would get rid of ANYBODY, so if in GF III a conflict arose between Michael and Tom Hagen, or Michael and Kay, you would get the feeling "if this goes far enough Michael is capable of killing them."

in the godfather even don vito his father said fredo was the weak one in the family

Right, that's even established in the flashback sequences of GFII that Fredo was a weak and sickly baby. Clearly that was meant as a foreshadowing scene to what would happen later in his life.

Of course Mike suspected Fredo, thats why he asked him to bring the $2 million in the first place, to get him there and get the truth, thats why he coldly suggests they spend some time together, Freddie thinks his brother is finally showing him some attention when really he is trying to get Fredo to make a mistake, which he eventually did at superman. I think the near confirmation was when he says 'i was mad at you... why didnt we spend time like this before!' its so obvious after that, i still believe Fredo could have been forgiven and did not intend his brother to be wiped out. And i dont think its fair to label Fredo's speech about being 'stepped over' as a rant, i could fully feel and understand his resentment, it had been bottled up for years and finally came exploding out, fantastic stuff.

Good thread which for once doesnt ridicule Fredo, its shows he was a damn GREAT character