thats the problem with these kinds of threads, nobody really knows for sure. as far as detroit is concerned, i really don't know much about them so i tend to take the word of scott d as he has researched them more than anyone else on here. scott, if you read this maybe you should start a thread "detroit family: myths, facts and realities" that goes into detail about detroit from how many made men, current operations/territory ect as its just one of those families where everything is unclear. it seems like there is always endless speculation on the midwest families like detroit, chicago and even to a lesser extent KC.