Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica


See, I have to agree with DPG. There's something about Chicago and the relevant dearth of info. It's also interesting how Chicago guys in particular often make the claim that their hometown's mob is so much different then the rest of the country's like it's the one city that bucks the general trend. That if the Feds have it wrong just once, they've got it wrong about Chicago.

As far as the Italianization of the Outfit's one-time multicultural make up, the last non-Italian 'member' of note to my knowledge was Frank 'The German' Schwiehs. Apart from him, it seems like nearly every other major non-Italian associate was eventually flipped or murdered (William Dauber, Daniel Seifert, Emil Vaci) I may be wrong on this, but Id agree with wiseguy when he points out that the Outfit became more Italo-centric in modern times.


Tracking all indictments since 2000, as I like to do, there's enough info to keep tabs on the Outfit. But if there does seem to be a dearth of info to some, I would attribute it to the same reason for a dearth of info on any family - there's not as much going on as some would like to believe.

People seem to think the Outfit is such a big mystery. Or, as Mickey just talked about, that they're the one exception when it comes to law enforcement scrutiny. (not saying he personally believes that). Never mind the fact we've heard the same thing about Detroit. It's always the excuse people use to explain away the lack of info.

As for Schwiehs, he was a long time, well respected associate. An enforcer and one of the most notorious killers still around. But it's not like he had any position in the hierarchy of the family. He wasn't in the administration, a crew boss, etc.


Exactly. But he does seem to be amongst the very last non-Italian mobsters of note affiliated with Chicago. I put 'member' in inverted commas, but I agree; I should have written associate to avoid confusion.

And for the record, indeed I do not believe the Outfit is an exception to the rule. I do however think it's interesting how it's so often the Chicago guys claiming there's so much the Fed's are missing about the mob in their hometown; you may get the occasional whack-job saying similar things about any number of defunct Families, but with Chicago it's a recurring theme.

Originally Posted By: BarrettM
Ivy, good call on Schweihs. The fact is, THE highest ranking non-Italian member, no matter how many people will tell you Murray Humphreys, was actually Gus Alex, who sat on the temporary ruling panel before Aiuppa took over. If an argument can be made that at one point the Outfit's upper echelon included non Italians, he's someone to look at.

Another thing of note. Albert Tocco and RIchard Cain were only a small percent Italian, and both were made men. Never seen this brought up before, so discuss.

Finally, in regards to the OP. I think you're reading too far in to it. The caporegime system is the same as in any other city, except crews also have an Underboss who is seen as as much a senior figure as the capo would be. A good example is 'Johnny Apes' Monteleone, who was seen as leader in his own right. I wouldn't go so far as to call the crews mini-families, or call the made men crew leaders as well.

Kind of sloppy typing, let me know if I need to reiterate anything.


I was unaware of Tocco's supposed mixed ancestry. Do you know what nationality his mother was, or have a source on the info?

IIRC, Jimmy Marcello was also half Irish (on his mother's side, obviously). In Family Secrets by Jeff Coen, he mentions how Marcello seemed anxious about it being revealed in court.

Last edited by Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica; 06/29/12 11:06 PM.

(cough.)