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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: olivant]
#621465
11/25/11 06:51 AM
11/25/11 06:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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I don't believe in evil. There's only what we do. So, I don't believe that Mike turned to evil. He did things that we characterize as evil. He didn't think they were. He thought they were justifiable. Concocting the murder of Sollozzo seemed justifiable to him just as his divorcing kay and almost turning her children against her seemed justafiable. If there is evil, he always had it in him. It just took circumstances to prompt its expression. According to Phil Zimbardo evil is related to power, the will to dominate people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg(This is just a little summary of his 500 pages book, which in fact is a 1,000 pages book because of the small fonts.) In my opinion there's a significant change in Michael towards killing. When Tessio and Clemenza discuss the killing of Philipp and Bruno Tattaglia, Sollozzo and others, he asks: "You kill all those guys?" Two or three days later he's ready to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, and he knows that this will change his life forever. He knows he has to disappear, he has to leave his love. He knows he's acting against the law. Zimbardo says, we all have both sides in us. The question is, are we ready to resist? We don't know what Michael experiences during WW2 and what he really did there. Very probably, he saw injustice, he saw cruelty, he saw people dying. Definetely more than shooting people a mile away.
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: Danito]
#621488
11/25/11 12:48 PM
11/25/11 12:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,068
JCrusher
OP
Underboss
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,068
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I don't believe in evil. There's only what we do. So, I don't believe that Mike turned to evil. He did things that we characterize as evil. He didn't think they were. He thought they were justifiable. Concocting the murder of Sollozzo seemed justifiable to him just as his divorcing kay and almost turning her children against her seemed justafiable. If there is evil, he always had it in him. It just took circumstances to prompt its expression. According to Phil Zimbardo evil is related to power, the will to dominate people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg(This is just a little summary of his 500 pages book, which in fact is a 1,000 pages book because of the small fonts.) In my opinion there's a significant change in Michael towards killing. When Tessio and Clemenza discuss the killing of Philipp and Bruno Tattaglia, Sollozzo and others, he asks: "You kill all those guys?" Two or three days later he's ready to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, and he knows that this will change his life forever. He knows he has to disappear, he has to leave his love. He knows he's acting against the law. Zimbardo says, we all have both sides in us. The question is, are we ready to resist? We don't know what Michael experiences during WW2 and what he really did there. Very probably, he saw injustice, he saw cruelty, he saw people dying. Definetely more than shooting people a mile away. Good analysis
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: JCrusher]
#621794
11/27/11 02:20 PM
11/27/11 02:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
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Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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He was very different from Vito. Vito obviously wouldn't hurt his family and do other methods that were unsound that mike did According to the novel, Vito put his own son Fredo "on the shit list", that is, he didn't talk to him any more, except for a few messages. What methods are you referring to? Vito killed people or had people killed. In "business affairs" he was as cruel and cold as Michael. The only difference was that he was able to keep a lot of friends. We tend to say that when it comes to family, Vito was much more the loving man than Michael. But I think, the circumstances under which Vito lived were more favorable. Vito didn't have to deal with women's emancipation (and an arguing wife), he didn't have to deal with a brother who betrayed him, etc.
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: JCrusher]
#621817
11/27/11 04:21 PM
11/27/11 04:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
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" ... and do other methods that were unsound that mike did."
Such as? What's unsound? Vito named a non-sicilian as consigliere? Vito sent Luca to find out about Sollozzo? Vito said no to drugs although they were "the coming thing." And Vito allowed the fighting qualitie of his capos to erode during ten years of peace.
I mean ordering the deaths of women and his brother Still, what was unsound about it?
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: olivant]
#621819
11/27/11 04:26 PM
11/27/11 04:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,068
JCrusher
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OP
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Posts: 3,068
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" ... and do other methods that were unsound that mike did."
Such as? What's unsound? Vito named a non-sicilian as consigliere? Vito sent Luca to find out about Sollozzo? Vito said no to drugs although they were "the coming thing." And Vito allowed the fighting qualitie of his capos to erode during ten years of peace.
I mean ordering the deaths of women and his brother Still, what was unsound about it? Maybe because its wrong lol. I don't know man maybe i think different because i have a conscience
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: JCrusher]
#621822
11/27/11 04:34 PM
11/27/11 04:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
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" ... and do other methods that were unsound that mike did."
Such as? What's unsound? Vito named a non-sicilian as consigliere? Vito sent Luca to find out about Sollozzo? Vito said no to drugs although they were "the coming thing." And Vito allowed the fighting qualitie of his capos to erode during ten years of peace.
I mean ordering the deaths of women and his brother Still, what was unsound about it? Maybe because its wrong lol. I don't know man maybe i think different because i have a conscience If so, you should select a more applicable adjective than unsound. Unsound would apply to a business decision. Immoral would be a more applicable adjective for you to use in the context you expressed. Also,as the novel details, one result of Vito's effort to monopolize the olive oil business was the disappearance of one of his competitors afterwhich that competitor's wife and children were forced to sell their business to Vito.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: DeathByClotheshanger]
#622305
11/30/11 12:53 PM
11/30/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Everyone has made similar points here, and I agree it was more a process than anything else. I think it begins after Vito is shot and Michael is observing up close how badly Santino is handling things. It dawns on him that if the family is to survive he is going to have to become more invlved. So he goes into NY and blows off Kay, goes to the hosital and his worst fears about how this is being handled are confirmed. The guards have all been sent home, and Vito is about to be killed. This is folllowed by the "I'm with you now Pop," scene, followed by Michael cleverly using Enzo to bluff the assassins, followed by him openly accusing McCluskey of being on the take. The following day when he returns home everyone he learns the war has been escalated by Sonny who whacked Tatt jr (in exchange for a slap in the face???) and he sees everyone in the family hemming and hawing about what to do next, with Tom leading the charge to neotiate a deal. Finally he realizes he is the one ho has to stop Sol, and then when he does it he crosses the Rubicon, so to speak. Then after Appollinia's death, he knows that he is the only surviving son who can save the family. When he is in vegas his attitude toward Fredo is cold and distant, and by then he is a fully developed bad ass.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: At what point did Mike turn evil
[Re: olivant]
#622419
11/30/11 09:24 PM
11/30/11 09:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531
AZ
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Yes, doing good for whom?
The novel makes the points that, when people came to Vito for help, "never were they disappointed." Later it says that "he got the idea that he ran his little world better" than the pezzanovanti in government.
Unless I miss my mark, the only good Michael did for individuals with no apparent strings attached was to make Jules medical director of his hotels, and keep Lucy on in some capacity--and that was only in the novel. He made a "magnificent endowment" to the State University in Nevada in II, but that was an institutional gift designed to help buy legitimacy. By III, he's literally throwing money at the Church and at Sicily--for the same purpose.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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