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"...let Anthony go..."
#609528
08/01/11 02:34 PM
08/01/11 02:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624 AZ
Turnbull
OP
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
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Kay had no reason to attend Michael's investiture as a Knight of St. Sebastian and his party, except to have a private audience with him. There she made her plea: "Let Anthony go."
Uh, how's that again? Anthony was in his late twenties at that time. He had finished college, had attended law school, and evidently had some serious vocal training. I can't imagine that he was living under Michael's roof, so he wasn't being held against his will. When Michael said, "Finish law school," Anthony replied, firmly: "No," and walked out. And, his feelings toward Michael obviously weren't warm, so I didn't detect any emotional bond (as there was twixt Michael and Mary).
So, what was Kay getting at?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: DeathByClotheshanger]
#609822
08/04/11 11:17 AM
08/04/11 11:17 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
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They're Italian, Turnbull. They never really get out from under they're parents and their opinions on their children's lives.
She may have also been saying. "stay out of his life". Agree with this but rather than saying "stay out of his life" I think she may be saying "let him lead his own life and accept it".
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Turnbull]
#617430
10/13/11 11:05 AM
10/13/11 11:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Celebel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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Well, Mike was an expert in bending people to his will, so he could have tried to interfere with Anthony.
But his arguments were deeply weird for a super-rich bloke. Law degree is an insurance for people who have to work for the living and scramble to pay for it. Ditto the risk of failure in a musical career.
I mean, if Anthony failed he could have gone back to law school or business school or go into business/politics or whatever, really. I am sure that Michael set him up with a nice trust fund and stock in the family corporation.
I don't see why it was even worth an argument on Mike's part, except that Coppola wanted to set up a confrontation with Kay. But he really should have come up with something more sensible.
Ironically, in the book Michael thought that he'd be glad if the next generation of Corleones became college professors or musicians, not just lawyers and politicians... And he never wanted his sons to inherit his criminal empire as he seemingly did in GF II, quite the opposite, he intended to take steps to ensure that they'd never be tempted.
Oh, and Luciano Pavarotti debuted at 26 after 6 years of singing training, so debut at 27 isn't completely out there for a tenor.
Last edited by Celebel; 10/13/11 11:10 AM.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Celebel]
#617442
10/13/11 12:48 PM
10/13/11 12:48 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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Ironically, in the book Michael thought that he'd be glad if the next generation of Corleones became college professors or musicians, not just lawyers and politicians... Really? I think missed that part, or forgot. How ironic. On the other hand, people can change their views or opinions over the years. He probably envisioned that Anthony would take over his business once it was legitimate. He obviously wanted his son to be well educated. And a law degree can always be of good use. And he never wanted his sons to inherit his criminal empire as he seemingly did in GF II, quite the opposite, he intended to take steps to ensure that they'd never be tempted. I'm not sure that it was seemingly that Michael wanted his son to take over his criminal business. There's one scene about this just after the shootings, when Anthony says to Michael that he wants to help him. Michael responds with something like that he can help him in the future, but he's doesn't explain in what manner.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#617443
10/13/11 12:56 PM
10/13/11 12:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Michael responds with something like that he can help him in the future, but he's doesn't explain in what manner. Yeah, Michael pats him on the head while he's laying in bed and Anthony says, "I can help you." Michael replies, "Someday you will." That was a very touching scene that I always thought would have been used to lay the groundwork for Part III (possibly in a flashback). But they obviously went in another direction. Back in the late '70s and all through the '80s when Part III was constantly being talked about, I always thought the film would deal with Anthony taking over the family. But obviously I was wrong.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: pizzaboy]
#617565
10/14/11 12:24 PM
10/14/11 12:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Celebel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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and Anthony says, "I can help you." Michael replies, "Someday you will."
That was a very touching scene I thought it pretty chilling, myself. And IMHO the main reason for Kay having an abortion and finally leaving Michael was the realization that if the things continued as they were, her son(s) would get involved in the family business too. That's why she brought up Anthony in their break-up quarrel. Also, if Michael wasn't subconsciously thinking in terms of having heirs for his criminal empire, why was he so fixated on having another son? I always thought the film would deal with Anthony taking over the family. But obviously I was wrong. Michael successfully taking over was a stretch, Anthony doing the same would have been completely implausible, IMHO. I think that it could have been interesting if Anthony went the opposite way and became a honest prosecutor or whatever, in a bid to make up for the family's misdeeds. There could have been stuff of interesting conflict and drama there, as opposed to really unconvincing objections to Anthony's singing career.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Celebel]
#617566
10/14/11 12:36 PM
10/14/11 12:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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I always thought the film would deal with Anthony taking over the family. But obviously I was wrong. Michael successfully taking over was a stretch, Anthony doing the same would have been completely implausible, IMHO. Well, you're right. But I never said Anthony had to be successful in doing so. He could have run the family it into the ground for all we know. There were so many scripts over the years. My favorite was actually the one where Anthony ended up a CIA operative. It's been posted here a few times over the years.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: olivant]
#617649
10/15/11 06:12 AM
10/15/11 06:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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Vito had intended for Fredo and Sonny to participate in, inherit his crime family. Michael was no different. He wanted boys. Don't you think that it's one thing to be old fashioned (wanting boys) and another thing to be the merciless leader of a crime organization (which Michael confuses with "family")? One of Michael's changes during "The Godfather" is his attitude towards criminal violence. In the beginning he strictly opposes it, even though he's used to cruelties from his war experiences. ("That's my family, Kay. It's not me.") His change begins when he's confronted not only with the attack against his father but with the corrupt part of legal authority (McCluskey). Three (or five) years later, he has completely changed his mind: "My father's no different than any other powerful man (...) Who's being naïve, Kay?" He has become now a fatalistic person who believes that you have to kill or get killed.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Danito]
#617696
10/15/11 03:47 PM
10/15/11 03:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624 AZ
Turnbull
OP
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
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One of Michael's changes during "The Godfather" is his attitude towards criminal violence. In the beginning he strictly opposes it, even though he's used to cruelties from his war experiences. ("That's my family, Kay. It's not me.") Plus: In GF, when Michael wants to visit Vito in the hospital, Sonny tells Clemenza to send an armed escort. Clem replies that the opposition knows Michael's a civilian and he'd be safe. But by the end of the film, during the Great Massacre of 1955, Rocco and his accomplice kill the hooker in bed with Tattaglia, and Clem's shotgun kills at least one (presumably) innocent bystander in the elevator car.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Danito]
#617739
10/16/11 06:27 AM
10/16/11 06:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Celebel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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Three (or five) years later, he has completely changed his mind: "My father's no different than any other powerful man (...) Who's being naïve, Kay?" Just because Michael's words were self-serving, doesn't mean that he was wrong. In the words of General Smedley Butler, a highly decorated US officer, who was notable for fighting against corruption: "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism... Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents." I don't want to downplay Michael's evilness, but objectively speaking, 20-ieth century was fool of people committing the most appalling crimes for variety of reasons and getting away with it more often than we'd like to admit. He has become now a fatalistic person who believes that you have to kill or get killed. To be fair, that was the situation he was in after he entered the game. I also don't think that Michael confused his real and crime family, much. The book strongly hinted that if Michael lost control of the crime family, then his extended real family would have been in dire straits. Sonny didn't leave an estate, so his widow and kids were supported by the Corleones. And prior to their marriage in the novel Michael told Kay that it would take some tricky re-structuring for her and their kids to be able to inherit anything should something happen to him. And of course, one can readily imagine the consequences to Connie and her kids if Corleones fell, given how Carlo treated her as it was. Not to mention that Tom and Fredo would have been in danger, too. Now, movies kind of sideline this aspect and generally ignore the third generation apart from Michael's own kids (Vincent doesn't count, being completely out of the left field), which is a pity, IMHO. Godfather being a sprawling family epic and all.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Celebel]
#617770
10/16/11 04:25 PM
10/16/11 04:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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[ He has become now a fatalistic person who believes that you have to kill or get killed. To be fair, that was the situation he was in after he entered the game. I also don't think that Michael confused his real and crime family, much. The book strongly hinted that if Michael lost control of the crime family, then his extended real family would have been in dire straits. 1) He chose the game. 2) The confusion of family and crime organization is one of the motifs of GF and GF2. In Gf2 Michael asks his mother about Vito: "But by being strong for his family, could he lose it?" They're all the time talking about the "family", when in fact they talk about business. Was Michael really trying to do good for the family when he made the deal with Roth or when he kept the crime business in New York? No, Kay was right. He had become completely blind. Killer Neri had become the closest person to Anthony. In a way, Michael was like many men at that time, a workaholic who didn't really care about his kids. However, he could leave the crime organization at any time. But he didn't want to pay the price: Giving up control, power and money. By the way, in a comment to GF2, FFC supports this interpretation of Michael's relationship towards his family.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Turnbull]
#617802
10/17/11 12:23 PM
10/17/11 12:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Kay had no reason to attend Michael's investiture as a Knight of St. Sebastian and his party, except to have a private audience with him. There she made her plea: "Let Anthony go."
Uh, how's that again? Anthony was in his late twenties at that time. He had finished college, had attended law school, and evidently had some serious vocal training. I can't imagine that he was living under Michael's roof, so he wasn't being held against his will. When Michael said, "Finish law school," Anthony replied, firmly: "No," and walked out. And, his feelings toward Michael obviously weren't warm, so I didn't detect any emotional bond (as there was twixt Michael and Mary).
So, what was Kay getting at? Ok, I'll say it. Anthony was a wuss. A mama's boy, and probably a finocchio. He didn't have the guts to say "no" to Michael unles he was hiding behind his mother's apron strings.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: dontomasso]
#617805
10/17/11 01:00 PM
10/17/11 01:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Ok, I'll say it. Anthony was a wuss. A mama's boy, and probably a finocchio. He didn't have the guts to say "no" to Michael unles he wa hiding behind his mother's apron strings. All kidding aside, that's a pretty fair and accurate statement. He was only brave enough to tell Michael that he was going his own way when his Mommy was in the room with him. KAY
Your son has something he wants to talk to you about. I came here for him.
CUT TO: Michael’s office. Anthony is waiting. Michael enters, looking annoyed.
MICHAEL
What’s wrong with being a lawyer?
KAY
Nothing, except he doesn’t want it. He loves music, he wants his life to be in music.
MICHAEL
Well music is great. I love music. But he should finish what he started.
(then)
Anthony...
ANTHONY
I’m going my own way.
MICHAEL
Your own way?
ANTHONY
Mmm Hmm.
MICHAEL
Professional singer?
ANTHONY
That’s right.
MICHAEL
And what happens -- what happens if you fail?
ANTHONY
I won’t fail.
MICHAEL
Men always believe that.
ANTHONY
I know.
MICHAEL
If you have a Law degree, you’re taking out insurance. After that you can do whatever you want. You can work for me…
ANTHONY
I will never work for you. I have bad memories.
MICHAEL
Every family has bad memories.
ANTHONY
I will always be your son. But I will never have anything to do with your business.
MICHAEL
Anthony, finish the Law degree.
ANTHONY
No.
<Anthony leaves.>
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Turnbull]
#617850
10/18/11 09:20 AM
10/18/11 09:20 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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Right, Oli.
One of the great things about GFI was the contrast of the Family life with ordinary family life.
I think that's what FFC (not entirely successfully) was going for here - a standard father-son dispute in the milieu of their totally non-standard lifestyle.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#617878
10/18/11 01:57 PM
10/18/11 01:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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If Anthony had finished the law degree,Michael would have ended up owning Immobiliare, been legitimate, and Mary would not have died. Accordingly the real cause of Mary's death and Michael's lack of legitimacy going forward is entirely KAY's fault.
Last edited by dontomasso; 10/18/11 02:00 PM.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: "...let Anthony go..."
[Re: Danito]
#617902
10/18/11 04:18 PM
10/18/11 04:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Celebel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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I never said Anthony had to be successful in doing so. He could have run the family it into the ground for all we know. But didn't we see that with Sonny and Fredo already? Sons willing to go into criminal business, but not quite (in Sonny's case) or at all (in Fredo's) having what it takes. Also, heredity is not destiny, not even for a Corleone... IMHO, after Sonny jumping into "the life" eagerly, but failing as a Don, Michael succumbing reluctantly and succeeding, but at tremendous personal cost, character of Anthony could have been a great dramatic chance to show somebody who really manages to walk away - but only if there had been real temptation for him to fall too and cost for persevering. Generally, I feel that GFIII was a huge missed opportunity re: looking into fascinating question how normal, decent people raised on US values could relate to a loving and beloved family member, who is also a merciless killer. Re: 1979 script, you picked my curiosity, so I looked it up... and wow, this reads like a Steven Seagal movie. Absolutely terrible, IMHO. The confusion of family and crime organization is one of the motifs of GF and GF2. I don't see it in GF 2. Crime family was never anything but instrument of his will for Michael (unlike Vito). He did confuse his own unbridled ambition, power-hunger and greed with what would be good for his extended real family, but it was all about himself, not the crime organization. Killer Neri had become the closest person to Anthony. Not for lack of kids approximately his own age to socialize with, though. There were all these cousins on the estate, after all, and probably part of the personal had kids too. But yea, Anthony was a troubled boy. I kind of wonder if, ironically, Michael and Kay only had daughters, he may have been better off. Fear for Anthony's fate was a powerful motivator for Kay to stand up to Michael. However, he could leave the crime organization at any time. I am not really sure about this. Unless he was prepared to change his name, grab his wife and children, abandon his extended family and go start a completely new life somewhere far away. Otherwise, people may have taken revenge on him (and that 50-55 massacre must have left a lot of pissed off people) or tried to make a name for themselves by taking him out, or even just made sure that he wouldn't change his mind and try to return, once he relinquished his power. Michael surely didn't have to provoke Roth and he could have gone legitimate much sooner if he had switched from the casino business. But it would have been a tricky process, IMHO. Ok, I'll say it. Anthony was a wuss. A mama's boy, and probably a finocchio. He didn't have the guts to say "no" to Michael unles he was hiding behind his mother's apron strings. Well, few people were ever able to say "no" to Michael. He was expert at bending people to his will and not just by threats of death. Part of the job description. And IMHO, it was smart of Anthony to want to avoid a massive quarrel. But, really, the whole "conflict" over Anthony's career was so completely artificial and implausible, that it is difficult to take any of it seriously. I mean, looking at Rockfellers from "Anthony's" generation - well, they did all kinds of things. Philosophy, divinity, languages, anthropology, etc. And Michael knew by his own family's experience that not all sons are desirable heirs for their father's business, and that he himself couldn't be convinced by mere arguments, so...
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