Good point...however, this in my opinion emphasises Fredo's weakness, not Michael's.
This was not the point of the reference. We were disucssing how much time and attention Michael paid to Fredo. You challenged for evidence, which I provided.


That would be true if you (and others) hadn't been stating throughout this thread that Michael should've foreseen Fredo's potential for betrayal and done something to prevent it.
Fredo could have been named Executive Vice President of Entertainment of all family owned Vegas Casinos. What does that prove?

Not in terms of predicting Fredo's behavior. As you said, this was done for far different reasons.

Disagree completely. You should put on your Sicilian thinking cap and chew on it for a bit.

And by the way...if Vito posessed such 'people skills' and 20/20 foresight that Michael lacked, wouldn't HE have foreseen Fredo's discontent at being passed over (at his own wishes), and advised Michael how to handle his brother? Or given suggestions on how to keep Fredo happy so he wouldn't one day be connned into working with the enemy?

Solid point here. As I pointed out in one of my earlier responses, I have begun to challenge my own position that perhaps this issue could/should be traced back to the Don himself. I don't believe that Fredo's future was contemplated sufficiently for a thoughtful plan to be hatched. As such, Michael did not have the creatitivity, attention or interest to create one of his own. As it turns out, I now believe this lack of forethought be the new #1 greatest miscalculation of the Don's life-- as well as Michael's.

I would not blame Vito for this because 1) He thought Santino would be Don and once he died Vito, who was old and sick had to groom Michael, and simply didn't have the time to deal with Fredo.

I still think if Fredo thought he was an imoprtant member of the family he would have not betrayed Michael. Deep down Fredo knew he would not hae made a good Don, znd he just wanted some "respect."

That Michael and Tom never saw Fredo as a potential threat is their fault.

Here's an example of what I am talking about. Whoever hatched the plan to set up Geary, it was done in a place Fredo ran.
He was clearly in on the plot, and there is no reason Michael and Tom could not have lavished him with praise, given him credit, and telling him he was the family's "secret weapon."
Yes, I understand this happened after the betrayal, but thing like that being done all along could have kept him in line.

Now that's a smart move!

But, I don't know, Fredo wasn't that stupid that he wouldn't realize if his "advices" were bullshit and that he didn't know what was going on.

The idea would be to let him think his advice was followed.
Its the same ploy Andy Griffith always used to ave Barney from himself.

I would not blame Vito for this because 1) He thought Santino would be Don and once he died Vito, who was old and sick had to groom Michael, and simply didn't have the time to deal with Fredo.

That Michael and Tom never saw Fredo as a potential threat is their fault.

Good points. There is no way the Don could have foreseen the chain of events that led to Fredo becoming a turncoat. However, as a Father who deeply loved his family, and took great pains to assure their futures were to be secured long after he was gone, he failed Fredo. As you point out, likely a consequence of having to bring Michael up to speed in such short order. Perhaps the lesson learned is that the Corleone family, during the period we are speaking of, was only as strong as the weakest brother.

Here's an example of what I am talking about. Whoever hatched the plan to set up Geary, it was done in a place Fredo ran.
He was clearly in on the plot, and there is no reason Michael and Tom could not have lavished him with praise, given him credit, and telling him he was the family's "secret weapon."
Yes, I understand this happened after the betrayal, but thing like that being done all along could have kept him in line. [/quote]

Great idea. Fredo was so starved for attention that he would have believed that he really was the secret weapon-- much the same way he was proud to be learning the casino business.

Vito live a good 4-5 years after Sonny's death...and although a little slower would certainly have had time to address what you guys like to call 'Fredo's Situation' ... that is had he thought there even was a situation.



Are you kidding? These men had important work to do and coddling the family idiot who had proven his ineptness time and time again throughout the years had no part in this work.

The reality is that nothing would've satisfied Fredo or made him feel important, other than becoming head of the family upon his father's death.

And that is where Roth moved in and outsmarted Michael, at least for the time being.

Jeez, though...Michael Corleone did have his weaknesses and this thread could've initiated a decent discussion on what they were. Are you people so intent on giving Fredo the loser so much slack that this is all you can come up with?

Yes.


Maybe not. When the manager (the guy who looks like Gene Vincent) greets Tom and Fredo, he says, "Freddie, good to see ya," which suggests that Fredo wasn't there very much. I bet Fredo once told Michael: "Hey, Mikey, ya know who's a regular in my jernt? Yer buddy Senator Geary. Yeah, he's into some kinky s**t with one a my girls--a regular." Michael would have tucked that bit of info away like a 100-carat diamond. I bet neither he nor Tom ever told Fredo in advance that Geary was to be set up, and the hooker murdered. That was probably another reason why Fredo resented Michael.

The reality is that nothing would've satisfied Fredo or made him feel important, other than becoming head of the family upon his father's death.

So how does something that seems so obvious to you escape Don Michael Corleone?

I think that there is a little unfinished discussion on this thread. Mr. Apple, how do you reconcile your statements below?

"Michael had no reason to distrust Fredo or keep him under a 'watchful eye', prior to the hit attempt by Roth. Because Fredo kept his resentment to himself until Johnny Ola came along to stir it up. "

"The reality is that nothing would've satisfied Fredo or made him feel important, other than becoming head of the family upon his father's death."

Though I am new to this board, and lack the gravitas of being 7,000 post member, I don't think that it is out of line for me to request that you provide commentary on the seemingly conflicting positions that you have taken. It would be only fair and sporting of an individual with such impressive stature (on this board) that has seen fit to be so dismissive of others.

I see no contradiction in what Apple is saying. She says that she thinks:

1) Michael had no evidence to distrust Fredo... or at leat he did not see it.

and

2) Fredo did harbor resentment (albeit unseen by Michael) that would never be satisfied
until he was numero uno in the family.

Do you really think that it's possible for a person with such a lack of cunning as Fredo to have the ambition stated in #2 with #1 being true?

Perhaps there is information that backs up #2 that I am unaware of. If there is such information, wouldn't/shouldn't Michael have known about it?

Primo, Fredo flat-out says, in that famous boathouse scene, "I'm your older brother, Mike...and I was passed over!" When Michael replies, "That's the way Pop wanted it," Fredo practically screams, "It ain't the way I wanted it!!" That tells me nothing short of the Donship would have satisfied Fredo. It also tells me Fredo had a strong motivation for wanting his brother dead.

Why didn't Michael know about Fredo's resentment? Because he was too self-centered to notice--or to care. As far as he was concerned, Fredo was weak and stupid, but apparently not dangerous. I can understand why a brother wouldn't suspect another brother of treachery, but Michael simply shut his mind to that possibility. His mistake.

Do you really think Fredo believed for a second he could work as a Don? I think that his self-esteem was very low. And I believe that his main frustration was that he never got the kind of love from his father that Michael or even Sonny git. In fact as Puzo put it, Fredo was on his father's shitlist. And Fredo knew why.

There is no limit to human self-deception. In Fredo's mind, his low self-esteem must have been a product of the fact that he was "passed over"; ergo, if he were the Don, everything would be righted.

Primo, Fredo flat-out says, in that famous boathouse scene, "I'm your older brother, Mike...and I was passed over!" When Michael replies, "That's the way Pop wanted it," Fredo practically screams, "It ain't the way I wanted it!!" That tells me nothing short of the Donship would have satisfied Fredo. It also tells me Fredo had a strong motivation for wanting his brother dead.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In my mind, Fredo was just letting his emotions go in trying to explain his actions after he'd been identified as a traitor.

Lines like "something in it for me" and "I'm not stupid, I'm smart, and I want respect" tell me that Fredo didn't thirst after the ultimate power of Donship; that he would have been satisfied with "something" or anything on his own; and that he simply wanted to be respected by his brothers.
What is certain is that there's no way of proving or disproving either point.

The interesting thing about this message board is that it seems that the more posts you have the more inclined you are to be a Fredo conspiracy theorist.

So, you're gonna change your mind in a few months?