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How Dumb Was Woltz?
#497225
07/03/08 11:46 AM
07/03/08 11:46 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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After Tom informs Woltz about his client being able to make union problems go away, and about his contract star moving from marijuana to heroin, Woltz goes into his famous tirade telling off his "kraut-mick friend." Immediately afterwords he tells his employee to "check him out." In the next scene at Woltz' place he tells Tom he had no idea he worked for Corleone, and asks "why didn't you tell me," aying he thought Tom was some "two bit hustler" that Johnny was using to muscle him. Leter that evening when Woltz delivers his second tirade he tells Tom "an I ain't no band leader....yeah I heard that story." My question is if Woltz knew Johnny was backed up by Vito Corleone, why would he think Johnny would bother running in some "two bit Hustler" when he was backed by the most powerful Don in the country? Further, I see why Wotlz would invite Tom over once he found out who he worked for, but did he really think he could talk his way out of this? He seems to be playing it cool when he says he would do any other favor asked of him, but when Tom says Vito never asks for a second favor after a refusal, he has to know Vito will not take this lightly. Did he really think he could keep Vito off his case simply by telling that he was tougher than a guy who had a gun put to his head with the promise that his brains or his signature would be on a contract? If so, I think Woltz' brain was going soft from all that comedy he was playing with that young girl.
Last edited by dontomasso; 07/03/08 01:40 PM.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: dontomasso]
#497253
07/03/08 01:14 PM
07/03/08 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839 Elmwood Park, Illinois
YoTonyB
Neighborhood Guy
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Neighborhood Guy
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Elmwood Park, Illinois
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That's not only one of my favorite scenes, but it was the first long piece of dialog (monologue?) that I memorized from the movie. However, it wasn't until I read the novel that I understood Woltz's stubborn refusal to give Johnny the movie role...and it's in the novel where you'll find the answer.
When Woltz says, "I ain't no bandleader," he sums up his closing argument to Tom and you could reasonably infer what the novel makes explicit -- Woltz (immovable object) believes he is Vito's equal (unstoppable force) and is openly challenging Vito with his refusal to give Johnny the role. He's saying to to Vito through Tom, "What's he gonna do, whack me because I wouldn't give an acting part to Johnny?"
This was really a high-stakes game of chicken between Woltz and the Corleones...and Woltz ultimately blinked first.
There are a number of stories where the novel provides a detailed explanation but somehow doesn't create the same impact as presented on the screen. Similarly, the movie leaves a lot of questions unanswered because it's so difficult for a screenwriter, director, and group of actors to convey a thought process the same way it's detailed in a book. Woltz's rationale is detailed nicely in the book, but Coppola's movie scenes and the iconic horse's head are the explanation point to Puzo's writing.
tony b.
Thank you for the dinner and very pleasant evening.
"Kid, these are my f**kin' work clothes." "You look good in them golf shoes. You should buy 'em"
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: YoTonyB]
#497254
07/03/08 01:20 PM
07/03/08 01:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
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Tom didn't tell Woltz who his client was when he approached him on the movie set. Woltz only learned about Vito after one of his associates checked Tom out. So, it's not totally implausible that Woltz first thought Tom might have been a two-bit hustler from Johnny. Tom also wondered why Woltz would invite him for a tour of his estate and dinner if he knew he was going to turn down the request to give Johnny the part. Once again, the novel provides the key detail, when Woltz says, at dinner: "I'm sorry, the answer is still no. But since you're here, what will it cost me to have that labor problem cleared up. In cash. Right now?" Did he really think he could keep Vito off his case simply by telling that he was tougher than a guy who had a gun put to his head with the promise that his brains or his signature would be on a contract? If so, I think Woltz' brain was going soft from all that comedy he was laying with that young girl. The novel has Woltz telling Tom that J. Edgar Hoover is a personal friend of his. What was really dumb was that Woltz thought his friendship with the FBI chief would scare off Vito. After he wakes up with the horse's head, Woltz finally realizes, "What was the penalty for killing a horse in California?"
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: dontomasso]
#497273
07/03/08 02:12 PM
07/03/08 02:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
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True. He loved the ponies. And the interesting thing, IMO, was that he got tips on fixed races from FBI agents. He had to have known that the tips came from criminal sources, but he just ignored that part. He was a small-time bettor, anyway. Hoover was a lifelong bachelor who shared his home with Clyde Tolson, his second-in-command. He's had several competent biographers, all of whom tried to check out rumors that he was gay. They weren't able to prove it--which doesn't mean he wasn't gay, just that they found no evidence to prove it. The dressed-in-drag photo is probably a fiction.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: Turnbull]
#497284
07/03/08 02:34 PM
07/03/08 02:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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True. He loved the ponies. And the interesting thing, IMO, was that he got tips on fixed races from FBI agents. He had to have known that the tips came from criminal sources, but he just ignored that part. He was a small-time bettor, anyway. Hoover was a lifelong bachelor who shared his home with Clyde Tolson, his second-in-command. He's had several competent biographers, all of whom tried to check out rumors that he was gay. They weren't able to prove it--which doesn't mean he wasn't gay, just that they found no evidence to prove it. The dressed-in-drag photo is probably a fiction. All true, Turnbull but still I can't resist this imaginary dialogue: Vito - Tom what did you find out in Hollywood? Hagen -Well for one thing he is sleeping with a 13 year old actress. His butler was pretty quick to re-fill my wine glass, and his prized posession is a horse he is putting out to stud. Vito - That's an infamnia about the girl. What else. Hagen - He claims to have close ties to J. Edgar Hoover and he went out of his way to tell me he heard about the story about Luca and that bandleader, and that he wasn't afraid of you. Vito - J Edgar Hoover is a Washington Finocchio who dresses like a woman. Tom - Not only that but they say he only allows his driver to make right hand turns. Vito - What else do you know about Hoover? Tom - Our people in Baltimore say he loves horse racing. They give him tips on fixed races, and he has the man he lives with go and place $2 bets. He never goes to the window himself. Vito - You say Hoover likes horses? Tom - That's what I undertand. Vito - Maybe we can send this Hollywood big shot and Mr. Hoover a message at the same time.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: dontomasso]
#499586
07/12/08 11:01 PM
07/12/08 11:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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...Did he really think he could keep Vito off his case simply by telling that he was tougher than a guy who had a gun put to his head with the promise that his brains or his signature would be on a contract?... Yes, he did and with good justification. His role as a big shot Hollywood producer afforded him much more protection (both legal and physical) than some 2-bit bandleader. Although it's not necessary in the film, as Turnbull points out there is detail in the novel that shows why Woltz would believe he had nothing to fear from Vito Corleone. But as Turnbull also points out...the that the Corleone Family would be able to get to him at the expense of his beloved Khartoum was the absolute farthest thing from Woltz's mind. There's a great passage in the novel, one of my favorites, that describes the absolute spin Woltz's head was in after the murder of Khartoum. He was absolutely ... ... !!
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: olivant]
#499794
07/13/08 06:44 PM
07/13/08 06:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876 Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
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The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
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He is the only one strong enough to cut off a horses head fast enough to have it in Woltz's bed by morning
He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!" So what’s the labyrinth? That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: olivant]
#499801
07/13/08 07:04 PM
07/13/08 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876 Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
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The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
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yes, the time that is takes for a normal person to cut off a big horses head, would be about 3 - 4 hours, the sun was just rising and that is about 6:00 Am, to be completely inconspicuous he would have started at 4:30 in the morning
plus if Woltz was as paranoid as he was said to be, a whole team of men would be very easily noticed by the stable guards and the other guards
He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!" So what’s the labyrinth? That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: Santino Brasi]
#499816
07/13/08 09:23 PM
07/13/08 09:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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yes, the time that is takes for a normal person to cut off a big horses head, would be about 3 - 4 hours, the sun was just rising and that is about 6:00 Am, to be completely inconspicuous he would have started at 4:30 in the morning
plus if Woltz was as paranoid as he was said to be, a whole team of men would be very easily noticed by the stable guards and the other guards All this goes under the heading of: Things the audience need not worry about, not if they have lives, anyway. Of course in a Family such as The Corleones, there would've been PLENTY of strongmen on the payroll, just as able as Luca to kill the horse, sever the head and deliver it to Woltz's room in time for him to awaken. In fact, such an achievement would probably have had to be completed by a team, not just one man no matter how big & tough. But who cares!? The who/how/how long it took aspect of the horse's head incident is simply not important. What's important is that it got there, and it got Vito Corleone what he wanted. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: svsg]
#499850
07/14/08 07:32 AM
07/14/08 07:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876 Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
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The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
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yes, the time that is takes for a normal person to cut off a big horses head, would be about 3 - 4 hours, the sun was just rising and that is about 6:00 Am, to be completely inconspicuous he would have started at 4:30 in the morning This is the funniest post in recent times it's true, they ran a special on The Godfather a while ago, and that is how long it would take
He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!" So what’s the labyrinth? That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: Santino Brasi]
#499864
07/14/08 10:20 AM
07/14/08 10:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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yes, the time that is takes for a normal person to cut off a big horses head, would be about 3 - 4 hours, the sun was just rising and that is about 6:00 Am, to be completely inconspicuous he would have started at 4:30 in the morning This is the funniest post in recent times it's true, they ran a special on The Godfather a while ago, and that is how long it would take You are all wrong. Luca garrotted the horse (as was to be done to him later). He used a special sharp wire that was so strong it beheaded Khartoum in 3 minutes, still a world record.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: How Dumb Was Woltz?
[Re: Turnbull]
#499936
07/14/08 06:27 PM
07/14/08 06:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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You're all wrong.
Luca was a heavy bettor at the track and he lost a bundle when his horse, Frau Bleucker, lost to Khartoum by a head. Infuriated, Brasi took his revenge by punching Khartoum in the head so hard that he beheaded the horse. Hollywood producer Woltz, never one to lose a filming opportunity, later re-enacted that scene in "Blazing Saddles". "Telegram for Mongo..." "Mongo like Don Corleone."
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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