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Carlo
#481873
03/29/08 07:46 AM
03/29/08 07:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
donjack
OP
Wiseguy
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OP
Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
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At first Vito says to give him a living but never discuss the family business with him. Then at the meeting with Tessio and Clemenza Michael says Carlo will be his right hand man in Vegas. Now why did the don allow that?
Last edited by donjack; 03/29/08 07:47 AM.
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Re: Carlo
[Re: olivant]
#481895
03/29/08 12:15 PM
03/29/08 12:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Mike wanted to use Carlo as a conduit for false info provided to Corelone enemies. While giving Carlo a false sense of security. Two birds with one stone.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Carlo
[Re: fathersson]
#482004
03/31/08 10:56 AM
03/31/08 10:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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At times I wonder why Vito treated his long time friends with such disrespect.
He had no choice. Time was short...for Vito and for Michael. They had to find the traitor. When CLemenza asks Vito if they can form theoir own family, he does not tell them "no," he defers to Michael who tells them they can do so in six months. This seals the deal for Tessio who turns traitor. In the long run, Clemenza was repaid in spades for his loyalty. Het got to RUn all the NY operations and he took over Vito's house.
What if Tom had felt the same way Tessio felt when Tom was pushed aside and was left outside the box.
Tom was always being leftout of the box, and he was so eager to be a "real brother" he would ntver have betrayed the family (although I confess to wanting to start a thread with the theory that Tom could have been a traitor all along...but that's for another day)
Would Fredo have done what he did if the old man was still alive? Or if he was treated better?
No he would not have, and this has been touched on elsewhere. The Don would have never allowed Fredo to think he was passed over. He would have kept him close, maybe even named him to some phony position... Asssistant Consigliere, or Consigliere Emeritus. It was a huge failing of Michael to allow Fredo to feel so excluded.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Carlo
[Re: Lilo]
#482016
03/31/08 12:10 PM
03/31/08 12:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
fathersson
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
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Sure, Vito asked for trust, faith and loyalty in a critical time. But he didn't give the same in return! That is the point I am trying to make.
Vito was dying, his future wasn't at stake. Blindly do as I ask, but, I don't have the same (trust, faith and loyalty) to give back to you.
See, I feel that both Clemanza ansd Tessio gave their trust, faith and loyalty for many years and at a time when it was needed most, Vito didn't return it to them the way they needed.
ONLY gun owners have the POWER to PROTECT and PRESERVE our FREEDOM. "...it is their (the people's) right and duty to be at all times armed" - Thomas Jefferson, June 5, 1824
Everyone should read. "HOW TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD"
CAUTION: This Post has not been approved by Don Cardi.
You really don't expect people to believe your shit do you?
Read: "The Daily Apple"- Telling America and the Gangster BB like it really is!
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Re: Carlo
[Re: fathersson]
#482020
03/31/08 12:48 PM
03/31/08 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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Hmm. I don't quite see it that way. Vito's intelligence, leadership abilities, wisdom and vengeful nature were such that over the years he had earned the right to extreme, even slightly irrational, loyalty from his oldest followers. It was not an organization of equals. Vito was the top dog.
There were lots of times that Vito acted without telling others what he was doing, made decisions that appeared questionable on the surface or did things that indicated he didn't fully trust his subordinates. Sending Luca on a secret mission without telling anyone, obtaining phone logs of calls made from and to Tessio and Clemenza, murdering Fanucci without checking with Tessio and Clemenza (and possibly exposing his friends to vengeance), or seemingly suing for peace after his first born son was murdered, were actions of someone who ultimately was only answerable to himself and trusted few people completely.
Those who accepted his leadership and didn't question it, even when things got really bad, were ultimately rewarded.
Vito challenged his doubtful retainers to trust Michael as they had trusted him. Clemenza had enough wisdom to do that. Tessio, who was smarter, did not. Unfortunately for Tessio, he was not as smart as Vito.
In real life of course mob leaders like Tom, Clemenza or Tessio who had lost as much power and territory as they did during the Five Families war, would have been demoted or even "terminated" once Vito took direct control back. His loyalty to them precluded that option...
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: Carlo
[Re: Lilo]
#482040
03/31/08 01:49 PM
03/31/08 01:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
fathersson
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
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Like I said, Vito used them like he didn't care about them. It is that simple. Vito knew this may happen when he treated either or both men like that. That is why he knew that they may turn on Michael when he died. Using them like he did in this rouse drove Tessio out. That was the price they would gamble on to pull the plan off. Hell, Michael didn't need Clemenza or Tessio, he had his own right hand man now. They were of his father's era, not his.
It is no different than when Carlo used his wife and beat her to bring Sonny out of the compound. A real gamble. What if Connie doesn't call the compound that night? Once before she kept her mouth shut and Sonny didn't catch it till he came over later. What if Sonny hears about it later and has Carlo whacked in a more carefully planned removal. And if Sonny did have Carlo whacked, no lost to them, they were using him anyway, just like Fredo would be used by Roth.
ONLY gun owners have the POWER to PROTECT and PRESERVE our FREEDOM. "...it is their (the people's) right and duty to be at all times armed" - Thomas Jefferson, June 5, 1824
Everyone should read. "HOW TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD"
CAUTION: This Post has not been approved by Don Cardi.
You really don't expect people to believe your shit do you?
Read: "The Daily Apple"- Telling America and the Gangster BB like it really is!
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Re: Carlo
[Re: fathersson]
#482042
03/31/08 01:55 PM
03/31/08 01:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,535 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,535
AZ
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See, I feel that both Clemanza ansd Tessio gave their trust, faith and loyalty for many years and at a time when it was needed most, Vito didn't return it to them the way they needed. You can certainly look at it that way, and you wouldn't be wrong. But the Mafia is all about greed and survival. Loyalty makes the difference between subordinates who are "businessmen" (as Michael described Neri and Rocco to Tom in II) who might turn on the Don when things get rough, or people who'll stand by the Don no matter what. Michael had no reason to automatically assume that he'd command T&C's undivided loyalty simply because he was Vito's son--doing so would have endangered him and his family. He needed to provide a test. You might argue that Vito simply dumped T&C when he told them to "be a friend to Michael." And you wouldn't be wrong there, either. But again, Michael's survival was at stake. Vito had retired, and even if he commanded them to support Michael, he couldn't guarantee their loyalty.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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