I totally understand the evolutionary significance of sports, but I find it too cave-manly for today's times. LLC, you might be interested in a book called "Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It gives an evolutionary perspective for a lot of things. I wouldn't suggest it to a firm believer in morality of human race, but I guess you would find it interesting.

If the criteria is greatest "athlete" then I disagree with Jordan. He tried baseball and failed. If you're looking for someone who is a great athlete then someone like Bo Jackson should be mentioned since he was great for a short time in football as well as baseball. I'm not suggesting Bo Jackson should be on the list because I don't think he would get a vote and people would just laugh. But his all-around athleticism can't be denied.

Jordan deserves a vote because he was the greatest in his sport. Like Gretzky in hockey and Ruth in baseball. Ali was the greatest culturally like Capo pointed out.

I think it's easier to pick sports figures and music entertainers because there is no arguing the impact they had on their sport/culture.

I think if this poll were done on a non-Godfather and Scarface related board the results would have been different for the actor category. I believe it's hard to argue that any actor made such an impact on the movie industry to completely change the way all other actors act from that point on.

For that very reason I voted for Jim Thorpe as one of my choices. He was voted as the top athlete of the first half of the 20th century (back in 1952) and that alone should be considered. He played pro baseball and football and was an Olympic star and probably had more athletic skills (all around) than anyone since.

There have been some really good ideas exchanged here. Thanks to everyone who put in their 2¢.

Yeah, I'm a crazy, godless Darwinist, so I'd probably dig it.

It sounds pretty interesting. I'm going to add it to my list. Thanks.

I was suprised to see Magic Johnson hasnt even got one vote.I thought he was a great Basketball player as well as being known all over the world and well respected although i suppose Jordon will always be the most popular.

Okay: I didn't vote in the "Sports" category because I don't know enough about the history of American sport.

As far as actors go, the first three that come to mind are:

Lon Chaney - a precursor to method actors such as Brando and De Niro, fully transformed himself in the role and made some brilliant characters with unforgettable performances.
Marlon Brando - naturalism defined, both cinematically and theatrically; only Klaus Kinski has the same presence when keeping his mouth shut.
Charlie Chaplin - though English, he is the face of American cinema (and therefore popular American society): significantly, tellingly and ironically, he became a blacklisted scapegoat, along with many others, under McCarthyism. Shame on a nation, really.
(honourable mention to Lillian Gish for sheer acting excellence, John Wayne for cultural significance and Humphrey Bogart for embodying, for me, 1940s Hollywood)

As far as entertainers go:

Elvis - undeniably the most significant "entertainer" to come from the States; he didn't write his own songs and he could barely act, but what stage presence and fandom.
The Beatles - again, an English import, but their popularity in the US is significant indeed; prolific, popular and very hip; they've never gone out of fashion, really. Lennon's murder was fortuitous in light of his Jesus-like legend.
Bob Dylan - the greatest songwriter ever, in my opinion, and after Eliot and Pound (chronologically, not qualitatively), probably the greatest poet of the 20th Century period. Enough said: I could write pages and pages on him.

I think in the entertainers section i went for:-

The Beatles
The Who
Frank Sinatra

It was a pretty hard descion though

Great thread and tough choices. I stuck with the names listed.

Athletes I put Ali, Nicklaus and Owens because in each case the man transcended the sport, and changed the sport forever.

Music was tough. I left presley out because while I think he was a pioneer in the early days, he wa so awful at the end that he became a parody of himself. I went with the BEatles, Dylan and Pavarotti, for the same reason I chose the three in sports... each of these transcended music, and became something greater.

Actors, Nicholson, Hoffman and Chaplin.

Jim Thorpe was a tough one to keep off. He was a naturally gifted athlete, and also played basketball on a Native American team that barnstormed through the eastern USA.

A couple of points of trivia. His Carlisle Indian School won a college football national championship by routing Army in a game where Dwight Eisenhower was injured while trying to tackle Thorpe, who had a 97 yard touchdown run one play after a 92 yard td run was nullified by a penalty. He also had a twin brother, named Charlie, who died when he was 9 or 10.

I love Klydon's trivia.

Klyd, is it true that one time, in a baseball game, in the bottom of the ninth inning the manager gave Thorpe the bunt sign, but he swung away, hit a home run, won the game for the team, and was fined or suspended for not listening to the manager?

I'll look it up. I know that among his 7 career homers, one came in the top of the 10th inning on 7-9-1918 to beat the Cubs in Chicago, 7-6. But he played most of his career for the NY Giants under John McGraw and that sounds like something McGraw would do. Maybe this was the game it happened.

Thorpe was an amazing athlete, but was a modest baseball player, especially when you compare his baseball exploits with his football career. Over 6 years he played in 289 games and hit .252, largely as a fill-in. Interestingly, 4 of his 7 homers came in the 77 games for which he played for the Reds. Also, in his final season that was spent mostly with the Boston Braves, he hit.327, his only season above .300. After that he spent three more years in the minors.

Certainly, if he weren't involved with football and other endeavors, his baseball career would have been longer and better.

He died penniless in 1953, and his native Oklahoma would not agree to erect a memorial for him, so the PA coal towns of Mauch Chunk and East Mauch Chunk agreed to merge, calling their new town "Jim Thorpe,PA" and Thorpe was buried there with a memorial built for him. Recently, there was a battle where Oklahoma wanted his remains returned for burial there, and I honestly don't know if this is still in dispute.

He died penniless and wasn't he also stripped of his Olympic Medals years after he was awarded them?

Yes. He was stripped of his medals because a reporter found out that prior to the Olympics, he had played in minor league baseball games for $2 a game. During summers college kids also played in these leagues, but preserved their collegiate amateur status by using pseudonyms.

The medals were reinstated to Thorpe's kids in the 1980s.

When King Gustav handed the gold medals to Thorpe in 1912, he declared, "You are the greatest athlete in the world,' to which Thorpe replied, "Thanks, King."

Greatest Sports Star:
"Star" implies cultural impact and popularity along with athletic and competitive achievements.

1. Other - Tiger Woods

Changed golf's demographics not just who are playing it, but who is watching the sport. Barring injuries or early retirement, Tiger is going to most likely going to best Nicklaus' major championships total. The game's most dominant. Everyone knows him. Celebrity endorser.

2. Muhammad Ali

Everyone knows him. Socio-political issues and sports. Global celebrity.

3. Michael Jordan

Endorsement giant. (The first sports superstar to be that huge of an endorser?) Has changed basketball culture - nearly everyone wants to be on Sportscenter highlights, win the scoring title and win the championship at the same time. How many are modelling their game after Magic or Bird?


Entertainers:

1. Duke Ellington

Jazz is an original American artform. He's one of it's (and popular music's) most influential figures. Extremely prolific.

2. The Beatles

Along with Bob Dylan, they, along with others, helped forge what became known as rock (different from rock and roll). Popular artists that experimented.

3. Bob Dylan

One of the huge figures, if not the figure, of early 60s folk music. Folk's biggest artist since Woody Guthrie at the time? One of the major, major contributors to rock music. The most influential in the move to more abstract lyrics in popular music? Stylisitic experimenter.

Michael Jackson, James Brown, Chuck Berry, and George Gershwin were very close to making the cut. Pop, funk/soul, rock and roll, musical theatre and classic concert hall respectively.

I don't know much about blues music, but blues is an original music artform and lots of rock, folk, and jazz music is influenced and based on the blues so have music scholars and artists like The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin said.


Greatest Actors:

1. Other - Greta Garbo

Possibly the greatest screen actress ever (not just for American, but world cinema)

2. Henry Fonda

Great performances throughout six decades!! Extremely versatile.

3. Marlon Brando

May not have as great a career as Henry Fonda, Chaplin, Keaton, or De Niro, but when Brando was on, he was on. The main influence for following generations of actors.


I'm not claiming to be an authority on these things so if I'm wrong about stuff let me know. I'd love to learn.

Would Tiger Woods be considered 20th century?

That's what I was thinking. He had that great Master's Tournament in the 90s, but I believe most of his greatness stemmed from 2001 and after.

Anyway, your picks are interesting. I too picked Henry Fonda and immediately doubted the pick. Thanks for selecting him. Maybe I'm not off base on that pick.

I think he did enough and had enough impact from '96 to '99 to be considered 20th century. He'll probably be the sports star of both the 20th and 21st century, but we and he got a long ways to go!!

If Wikipedia is right, these are his achievements from '96 to the end of '99:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods#1996-98:_Early_years_and_first_major_win




He may not have had the Tiger Slam on his resume yet, but he was already a "star" after the legendary '97 Masters, started the change of the demographics of golf players and fans, and had endorsement deals. "Star" in my book.



Kudos for the Fonda vote. You couldn't be more on base!

It's a crime he isn't brought up enough when talking about the greatest actor.