Hyman Roth tells Michael that Moe Green's death had nothing to do with business, so he never asked "who gave the order." By implication he is chastising Michael for asking him who had Frank Pentangeli killed, and is implying that it had nothing to do with business.

In fact, both deaths had everything to do with business. The Corleones had to move Roth out to take over his hotel, and by definition establish a presence in Las Vegas where Roth had interests. Pentangeli was holding back the Rosato brothers efforts to get control of new territories as Clemenza had promised them, and about which Pentangeli welched.

Indeed this nonsensical rant is further curious because I thought
the rules of the game were that you could kill people if it had something to do with business, and if it was nothing personal.

So why is Roth mad if in his opinion Green's death had nothing to do with business?

Oh, it had EVERYTHING to do with business. I think the rant was simply Roth's way of telling Michael to back off. He knew that Michael had his reasons for killing Moe Green - skimming off the top, publicly humiliating Fredo (and the Corleone Family by extension). Roth let Moe's murder slide because he knew that Michael had good reason for doing it, and even though he loved Moe, he never retaliated.

I believe his rant is Roth's way of telling Michael to back off. He had his reasons for trying to kill Pentangeli, all that trouble with the Rosato brothers. And Michael shouldn't let the murder of Pentangeli get in the way of their future dealings.

Roth let Moe's murder go, and now Michael must let Pentangeli's go.

I assume we are talking about the "attempted" murder of Frankie.

Except, at that point, Michael thought Frankie was dead.

Roth's point is that you do what you have to do when it comes to the business they had chosen and that who did it was irrelevant.

That scene of Roth's soliloquey (one of the best in the Trilogy, IMO) shows two deadly, dedicated predators playing out their end game as the clock ticks down:

--Michael had only hours left to find out who the traitor was in his family before Roth would make his move to assassinate him after the New Year's Eve party;
--Roth had only hours left to wheedle the $2 million out of Michael before having him killed.
--Both of them knew, or were reasonably suspicious, that the other was onto their game.

Michael started by trying to force Roth's hand ("I...just wanna wait..."). Seeing that his seeming indecision made him look weak in Roth's eyes and might make him vulnerable to a demand to hand over the cash immediately, he tried to put Roth on the defensive ("Who had Frank Pentangeli killed?"). But Roth parried him brilliantly with the Moe Green rap. So, in a large sense, the exchange was tactical: the final moves to keep their relationships going in order for both of them to buy more time.

But, to the original point: I believe Roth was saying that he took Moe's murder personally ("As much as anyone, I loved him, and trusted him..."). But he also acknowledged that Moe was "headstrong, talking loud, saying stupid things. So when he turned up dead, I let it go...I didn't ask who gave the order because it had nothing to do with business." There, I believe, he was rebuking Michael for the new, harsh tone in his voice when he demanded to know who had Frankie killed, and for the implication that Michael took it personally.

Another point to keep in mind: The last thing Michael said to Roth in Miami was, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." So, in Havana, was telling him that the Rosatos' murder of Pentangeli was business that Michael himself had sanctioned--another rebuke.

What a brilliant, complex exchange!

TB,I disagree about the Pentangeli murder conversation. Mike asks Roth if he objects to Pentangeli's murder and Roth says that he is small potatos. I think Michael was trying to confirm the suspected link between Roth and the Rosatos. That's why he asked him that question in Cuba.

I think when Roth said "I didnt ask who gave the order - because it had nothing to do with business," he meant that asking who gave the order had nothing to do with business. Roth knew Moe's death had everything to do with business, and he didnt want to make it personal by knowing who ordered it.

What did Michael need to confirm in Miami? He already knew that Roth was backing the Rosatos because it was the basis of Frankie's complaint to him in the boathouse in Tahoe. He took the Rosatos' side in that argument because he needed to in order to cement his deal with Roth. I believe that his statement to Roth in Miami, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man...you don't object?" was his way of putting Roth at ease, making him think that he, Michael, believed that Frankie, not Roth, was behind the Tahoe shooting.

Its a little confusing to me.


Michael and Roth meet - Pentangelli is a dead man, you dont object. So Michael should be planning on killing Frankie, right?

Michael and Pentagelli meet - Michael tells Pentagelli to settle troubles with Rosato's - Frankie agrees.

So what could Roth be thinking?

Ola calls Fredo - asks if meeting is on the up and up?

Roth fakes a whack on Frankie to setup the hearings trap.

Michael had no intention of killing Frankie because, as soon as the smoke cleared after the shooting, he was 99% certain that Roth was behind it. "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man" was designed to make Roth believe that Michael was convinced Frankie was the perp.
But, instead of killing Frankie, Michael calls on him. In one of Pacino's best scenes, IMO, he makes it look like he suspects Frankie--then tells Frankie that he wants him to help take his revenge on Roth. Frankie, practically peeing in his pants, nearly passes out with gratitude. "Michael...anything.." he says. "Settle these problems with the Rosato brothers."

It was Michael at his most manipulative: Frankie accepted this dangerous mission, thereby proving his loyalty to Michael and erasing the 1% lingering doubt. If he succeeded, that was one less problem for Michael to worry about. If the Rosatos killed Frankie during his mission, it'd be more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting. Either way, Michael couldn't miss.

Of course Johnny Ola wanted to know if it was a setup. They expected Michael to kill Frankie, not to send him to meet with the Rosatos. When Roth saw that Michael not only didn't kill Frankie but dispatched him to settle his problem with the Rosatos, Roth knew that Michael no longer suspected Frankie as the would-be Tahoe assassin--meaning that he might suspect Roth. So Roth went to plan B:

--Lure Michael to Cuba with the promise of handing over his Havana gaming empire--but with the real purpose of getting $2 million out of Michael and then having his pals in the Cuban governement whack Michael.
--Have his pals the Rosatos whack Frankie, thereby eliminating Michael's caporegime in NYC and setting up the Rosatos to take over the "olive oil business" after Frankie--and in short order, Michael, was gone.

You should know that the issue of Roth "setting up" Frankie to survive the garroting is one of the most oft-discussed on this board. I and many others here believe that there was no way--repeat, no way--Roth could have engineered Frankie's survival. He intended Frankie to be dead. The cop's intervention was pure happenstance.

Actually, Roth never got over Clemenza calling him "Johnny Lips." He held that against not only Clemenza, but all the Corleones. The $2 million was meant to mollify Roth about the "Lips" thing. But then Michael got pissed off about the "Michael Corleone sends his regards" thing.

TB, there's one thing I don't understand about this explanation.

If the entire Miami conversation is designed to make Roth believe that Michael blamed Frankie for the attempted hit, why did Michael then go immediately to Frankie and send him on a mission which made it clear to Roth that Michael did not blame Frankie? It seems the two actions were contradictory.

Can you please elaborate on this?

Thanks for your courtesy, LW. It gets a little dodgy, but I'll try:
Sure, it seems contradictory that Michael first tells Roth, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," and then dispatches him to "settle these problems with the Rosato brothers." If the first statement was designed to assure Roth that Michael was convinced that Frankie was the perp in the Tahoe shooting, then the second would have alarmed Roth.

But, I think it can become clearer if we keep in mind that Michael's utmost priority at that point was to buy time in order to find out who the traitor was in his family. He visited Roth before he dispatched Frankie, and fell over backward to convince Roth that the big picture was that "nothing interfere with our deal." The $2 million was the key to the deal. I think that Michael figured that not killing Frankie would make Roth suspicious--but Roth's greed for the $2 million would overcome any temptation for Roth to whack Michael right away. Michael figured, correctly, that Roth would wait until Michael came to Cuba with the $2 million. Once he got the money, he could have his pals in the Cuban government squash Michael like a bug.

Meanwhile, by sending Frankie to the Rosatos, Michael had himself a win/win: if the troubles were settled, it'd be one less thing for him to worry about. If the Rosatos moved against Frankie, it'd be one more piece of evidence that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting.
Calculated risks, all, but it was Michael at his most Sicilian-cunning.

What I never understood is why Michael had that outburst in Frankie's house. Did he want Frankie to think he suspectd him?

I think he was authentically upset.

SHowing his emotions openly? Letting other people know what he was thinking? Maybe he was getting a little soft in the head from all that lack of comedy he was playing with Kay.

Sure he did--temporarily. And when he finally said, "I want you to help me take my revenge," Frankie was so overcome with relief that he practically wet himself. Then Michael asked him to put his head in the lion's mouth by visiting with his arch-enemies, the Rosatos. As I've posted elsewhere, that was Michael's win-win: If Frankie settled his problems with the Rosatos, it'd be one less thing he'd have to worry about. If the Rosatos attacked Frankie, it'd be one more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting.
It was Michael at his most manipulative--and one of Pacino's best scenes, IMO.

TB do you think he suspected him at the house or did he want to scare Pentageli into thinking he suspected him....

OR

Could this have been an error in the film. I know that the Pentangeli role was initially to be a continuation of Clemenza, which didn't happen because of this Castellano business. I think one plot line was that Clemenza would betray the family, which would allow for a line like that along with the famous (and IMHO) ambiguous "Michael Corleone says hello" line.

I believe that Michael was 95% certain that Roth was the perp when he called on Frankie. The emotional outburst, I think, was a test to see Frankie's reaction. But the real test was, "Settle these problems with the Rosatos." Had Frankie declined, Michael would have been suspicious.

I don't know if he would have suspected that Pentangeli had, as he would put it in a later movie, "the wit" to pull off a hit on him. Frankie is in fact still reluctant to "settle these problems with the Rosatos," and doesn't agree to it until he confesses to Michael that he lacks the intelligence to make "big deals" and until Michael has to draw pictures practically to demonstrate how this ruse will make Roth feel comfortable.

Yes, but that's why I think Michael was 95% certain immediately that Frankie wasn't the perp. Frankie, as you (and Michael) put it, didn't have the wit to pull off the shooting. And what would he gain by it? Michael knew that Frankie didn't have the head for the big deals that might have presented themselves if Michael were dead. So, Michael figured, Frankie had little to gain by whacking him, knowing that he'd set off an orgy of vengeance and succession-grabbing by Rocco, Neri, Fredo--and probably the Rosatos and Roth--that would soon have him in the grave.

But, given Michael's suspicious and controlling nature, he had to be 100% certain, which is why I believe his outburst was a test.

I agree with everything you say here, except what I have quoted. Assuming Frankie had tried to pull off the hit, wouldn't he deny it? I mean even Carlo swore "on the kids" that he didn't finger Sonny.

Hey, I am new here and this may be covered elsewhere.

But the thing I never understood is why the guy garotting Frankie says, "Michael Corleone says hello."

I think everyone would agree that Roth and Rosato intended to kill him, but yet it seems that this statement makes Frankie believe Michael was behind it, and thus cooperates with the FBI.

Any explanation or am I just missing something?

Welcome Dr. Segal.

There are several discussions on this topic. According to urban legend, the line was actually improvised by Danny Aiello. I'll try to find a thread to connect you to.