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Materialism
#444487
10/18/07 04:54 PM
10/18/07 04:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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There is a woman on Oprah today who just had my blood boiling. The show is about people who are drowning in debt. This couple has 6 children, she doesn't work, and her husband makes $100,000 per year.
They own three cars, they are $135,000 in credit card debt and owe almost $700,000 on their house. They have no health insurance and no dental insurance. Their children have no clothes, because the mother buys them, and then sells them in a garage sale. They don't bring their kids to the dentist or doctor. One of their daughters has a tumor on her optic nerve, and she's supposed to get an MRI once a year. It's been almost three years since she had one because they "don't have the money", yet they give their children parties that cost thousands of dollars, spend $150 in the candy store, and she spends thousands every year on hair extensions, manicures and pedicures.
This has been passed off by Suze Orman as prevalent in America. How could this complete and total self-absorption be happening? I wanted to smack this woman with her crocodile tears!! Can't take care of her own kids, but she can rent her 13 year old a limo for her birthday party!!
I know this sounds like a rant, but there is a question in here! Are Americans that vested in accruing material things?? I can't imagine using cash advances from credit cards to pay other bills, ducking the phone calls from creditors that come in 6 or 8 times a day! However, this was passed off as "typical". Are we that impatient to accumulate cars and homes and clothes??
I'm also curious to ask our friends here from other countries if this is common where they live? Is this simply an American problem, or is it worldwide???
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444488
10/18/07 04:59 PM
10/18/07 04:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902 New York
SC
Consigliere
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Consigliere
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
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Sounds like a rant to me. I saw part of the show.... that couple was disgusting!! So now the woman is gonna work at Starbuck's to get medical insurance... whoopee-dooo. To answer one of your questions - I don't think all Americans are like this. There is, however, a large number of them that sadly fit this category.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444490
10/18/07 05:01 PM
10/18/07 05:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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I doubt the same materialism exists. Don't ask me how or why I know this because it's just a gut feeling. You've been to Italy many times, right SB? I'm not saying it doesn't exist there, it just doesn't seem as prevalent. I go to my family property in Cosenza every two years. I spent 18 months there from early 1988 to mid 1989, and I just didn't see it. Maybe in Milan or Rome, the bigger cities, not where my family came from. As far as that woman, she should lose custody of her children. I joke around about women a lot, and I know I shouldn't, because it's not right, and I'm hardly ever serious, but I'm as serious as cancer when I say this: That woman needs a beating.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: SC]
#444498
10/18/07 05:06 PM
10/18/07 05:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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To answer one of your questions - I don't think all Americans are like this. There is, however, a large number of them that sadly fit this category. I agree 100%, SC. It's one thing if you can afford it, but to live over your head, especially when you have children, isn't just foolish, it's dangerous.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444507
10/18/07 05:37 PM
10/18/07 05:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
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Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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Are Americans that vested in accruing material things?? Generally speaking, yes they are; it's the basis of the "American Dream," and quiet frankly, it's bullshit. Well, maybe I'm being cynical, but the economy that has been distinguished as an American economy pretty much relies of consumerism, and that's just fucked up, methinks. I could go on an elaborate Marxist rant, comparing and contrasting capitalism, communism, and socialism... but I won't. I'll just say that I'll continue to insist that America tweaks its way of operating businesses. All I know for sure is that when I'm 75, I want to be the crazy bastard who lives in a hand-whittled canoe on a small lake, wears a toga, and weighs about 90 pounds.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Don Sicilia]
#444522
10/18/07 06:32 PM
10/18/07 06:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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It's beyond my comprehension. How do you deny your children healthcare, yet spend $2,000 to bring fake snow in for one of their birthday parties?? On the outside, it looks as if these children have it all, but I think Child Services should take them away, because I consider them abused.
As for the debt, and blaming others, I understand your point, DS. However, what freaking bank allowed these people to borrow $658,000 on their home when they only make $100,000 per year??? What financial formula did they use?? And the best? They have a negatively amortizing mortgage, so they actually get DEEPER in debt each year instead of building equity!!
The husband sat there looking all dumb, like he had no idea that the spending was this out of control. Sorry, there's no way he could be totally unaware. If you spend thousands of dollars on parties each year, if you have a huge house with expensive furnishings (she had more granite in her kitchen than the Vatican, and she admitted that she had between $5-7,000 "invested in silk plants"), the clothes, the hair, the cars. What planet was he on??? Did she mortgage the house herself?? She simply can't, legally. So, he was just as criminal as she was.
What they should do instead of showcasing this trashy woman is show the working poor, and how they live from paycheck to paycheck, just trying to buy their kids new shoes or put food on the table. That's the how the REAL world lives, for the people who live around me who make $40,000 or $50,000 a year, have three kids, and a two bedroom apartment goes for $2,000 a month. Why not show what REAL financial struggles are???
OK, I'm almost done. Sorry.
PB, you're right. I don't see the mania in Italy. My family doesn't even understand the concept of a mortgage (of course, my three cousins were given their homes as wedding gifts - must be nice) and they pay in cash for everything. They looked in my wallet in amazement when they saw my credit cards.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444525
10/18/07 06:50 PM
10/18/07 06:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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First off, as far as I am concerned, these people have abused their children. Not taking them to a doctor, a dentist, or having their daughter's eye taken care of is child abuse as far as I am concerned.
You bring children into this world, they do not ask to be brought in. Therefore it is your moral and legal responsibility to take care of those children, clothe them, feed them, provide shelter for them, love them and see to it that they get an education and medical attention, especially if it is specifically needed.
Their admitting these things on national TV, as far as I am concerned, was a confession of child abuse. They should be investigated at the very least.
And I don't believe that this kind of situation is rampant in our country. Does it exist? Well you saw it right here. Is it just an American problem? Absolutely not.
I don't deny that there is a problem in this country as far as too much debt due to a ridiculous amount of extended credit and that because of it many Americans are vested in accruing material things, but I don't believe that the kind of accrual of materialism and selfishness that has been displayed in this situation is the "basis" for the American Dream. That's just absurd.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444540
10/18/07 08:12 PM
10/18/07 08:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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I really think it boils down to insecurity, when you feel the need to "keep up with the Joneses," or have to out do everyone that you know. Like I say, if you afford it, by all means, God bless you, spend it in good health, but if you're just trying to impress your neighbors and friends, you have a serious mental deficiency.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444553
10/18/07 09:02 PM
10/18/07 09:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984 California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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I don't know that there are a lot of people exactly like this family, but I am sure they are out there. I do know so many people that live way way beyond their means. God, so many home here are up for foreclosure because people either don't care that they get in debt and/or are so naive that they can't see beyond their noses that with certain loans, each year your payment can go up considerably.
It seems par to have your credit cards maxed out, live in a house that you can't quite afford, and of course your car must be a luxury or expensive vehicle of some kind. However, when it comes down to your children and supporting a family, do what everyone else does (or at least did in the old days)- sacrifice. Haven't many of us gone without for the sake of our children and simply to get by?
TIS
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#444559
10/18/07 09:19 PM
10/18/07 09:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098 Existential Well
svsg
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098
Existential Well
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I cannot speak out of lot of knowledge, but this is as far as my observation goes, both in my home country India and now in America. I can see some inter-related ideas here: Living at the edge of one's means and not prioritizing expenditures (health vs beauty care for example) are not America-specific problems. Dumb people exist everywhere. Living on credit exists, but not to the extent it is in America. You need collaterals for all loans and will be very tough to get such huge sums that you mention here, especially when you are in debt. And money lenders won't mind sending goons to beat up defaulters Also in general Americans spend their money well and enjoy their life, Indians tend to save like crazy for whatever reason And finally materialism. As opposed to what? The whole world runs on materialism, no?
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Re: Materialism
[Re: svsg]
#444668
10/19/07 09:41 AM
10/19/07 09:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,619 NJ
Don Marco
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,619
NJ
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I remember around 10 years ago I was working for a large company in the Princeton area and we were sitting around at lunch and credit card debt came up. One guy, newly married, said he didn't have that much - only $14,000. Others said they had over $5,000 and one person had almost $20,000 on their cards. Now no one at that table made more than $45,000 at the time. I was stunned by the amount of debt everyone had. All of them seemed to think of it as just another monthly expense. I have a neighbor that routinely runs up around $20,000 in card debt and then pays it off with home equity loans. They must owe more on their house now than when they bought it 15 years ago. But they have a new built in pool!
We have always used old fashioned ways to save for things. Christmas was paid for with a Christmas club at our bank (they don't call it that anymore!) and we used our tax refund for vacations. I know you are loaning money to the government if you have too much withheld but that way I didn't spend it.
"After all, we are not communists" Christopher Moltisanti: You ever think what a coincidence it is that Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig's disease?
Tony Soprano: Yeah well, when you're married, you'll understand the importance of fresh produce.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Mignon]
#444679
10/19/07 10:07 AM
10/19/07 10:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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These people who live way over their heads are the cause of the housing bubble and the mortgage crisis imho. I know many people who have refinanced their homes several times over the past years to consolidate their credit card debt, but new cars, and go on vacation. Ang guess what? They go and max out their cards again, and taking advantage of generous appraisals, refinance their homes again? Now many of them are faced with adjustable rate mortgages, and are drowning in debt and cannnot figure out why.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Don Cardi]
#444682
10/19/07 10:23 AM
10/19/07 10:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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I don't believe that the kind of accrual of materialism and selfishness that has been displayed in this situation is the "basis" for the American Dream. That's just absurd. The American Dream is to be able to make whatever you'd like of yourself, granted you put in the work. This requires a free, competitive market with capitalist values. Capitalism relies on consumerism; without it, the economy falls. Without consumers, we have nothing. In order to make a free market work, you have to have customers with a freedom to choose one product over another, one company over a competitor, and so on. If a company fails on the consumer-market, that company doesn't bring in money, goes bankrupt, and shuts down. Without consumers, there is no free market. Without a free market, there is no American Dream. Not the dream we're familiar with.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: dontomasso]
#444685
10/19/07 10:42 AM
10/19/07 10:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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Cause we are living in a material world...and I am a material girl...or boy. Loved The Wedding Singer...
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Re: Materialism
[Re: long_lost_corleone]
#444687
10/19/07 10:48 AM
10/19/07 10:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I don't believe that the kind of accrual of materialism and selfishness that has been displayed in this situation is the "basis" for the American Dream. That's just absurd. The American Dream is to be able to make whatever you'd like of yourself, granted you put in the work. This requires a free, competitive market with capitalist values. Capitalism relies on consumerism; without it, the economy falls. Without consumers, we have nothing. In order to make a free market work, you have to have customers with a freedom to choose one product over another, one company over a competitor, and so on. If a company fails on the consumer-market, that company doesn't bring in money, goes bankrupt, and shuts down. Without consumers, there is no free market. Without a free market, there is no American Dream. Not the dream we're familiar with. As I said : " THIS SITUATION"
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Materialism
[Re: Don Cardi]
#444688
10/19/07 10:56 AM
10/19/07 10:56 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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It doesn't really matter how drastic the situation is in founding my point though. Obviously this is a worst-case scenario, and it's both general and drastic... But if all of America behaved like this, I don't think the Gap would be complaining.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: pizzaboy]
#444754
10/19/07 02:02 PM
10/19/07 02:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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I think the insane amount of attention these Hollywood phonies get, plays no small part in this. Ever watch MTV Cribs? It's revolting. That's a great show to watch whenever you feel like hearing ebonics.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: long_lost_corleone]
#444766
10/19/07 02:50 PM
10/19/07 02:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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What is amazing to me is that they were able to amass almost $800,000 in debt on a $100,000 salary. How does anyone get that kind of money?? It's insane!
LLC, I agree with your analysis of the American Dream. It's a limitless level of success based upon the amount of WORK you put into it. However, the definition of success differs greatly.
About 15 years ago, my brother asked me and my other brother what sort of annual income we would want to be "comfortable". He defined comfortable as having a nice house, two decent cars, not Mercedes but fairly new and nice, and the ability to take a decent vacation once a year. Take into account that we all live in the NY metro area, which means that we have some of the highest-priced real estate and taxes in the country.
All three of us gave different answers. I said $100,000, my one brother said $80,000 and the one that asked the question said $150,000 (obviously, he takes nicer vacations than we do). I found it interesting that our answers all varied so widely.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Materialism
[Re: klydon1]
#444777
10/19/07 03:50 PM
10/19/07 03:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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I have always felt that the more you acquire things, the more you become possessed by your things. Our country has an abundance of beautiful and useful shiny gadgets, toys and accessories that are attractive, but not needed.
Yes, and when you die, people fight over the valuable stuff and just throw out the rest. Dylan had a great lyric about this: "Advertising signs that con You into thinking you're the one That can do whats never been done That can win what's never been won Meantime life outside goes on all around you." or as Mick Jagger put it: "A man comes on the radio whose tellin me more and more About some useless information, How white my shirts can be But he can't be a man cause he doesn't smoke The same cigarettes as me..."
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Materialism
[Re: dontomasso]
#444787
10/19/07 04:09 PM
10/19/07 04:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543 Gateshead, UK
Capo de La Cosa Nostra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543
Gateshead, UK
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There are a lot of complex issues - cultural, political, historical and economical - at work here, and nobody really seems to grasp any of the concepts. Or, nobody seems patient enough to express the logic required. I'm certainly not patient enough, either, but I think there's a lot more socio-economic history to consider in order to ascertain whether or not this is specifically American.
I will say this, though: Oprah's freakshow, and any shows of the same calibre, are not the sort of source you'd trust as far as fair representations of how the world works goes. It's just another sensationalist way of dumbing down the reality around us.
...dot com bold typeface rhetoric. You go clickety click and get your head split. 'The hell you look like on a message board Discussing whether or not the Brother is hardcore?
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