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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: 90caliber]
#427214
08/19/07 09:19 PM
08/19/07 09:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 13 Skid Row
Eddie_The_Cag
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Skid Row
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Like many others here, I never saw Frankie Five Angels as being stupid. Coarse, perhaps, and without the veneer of the graceful (yet hypocritical) socialite, for sure. But he wasn't really stupid.
He was the successor to Clemenza, and truly stupid people do not make it to the level of caporegime. He was a street guy, yes, and he probably even felt a certain degree of disdain for those who pretend to be somehow "better" than a street soldier. I have known men who shunned the pretensions of self-styled intellectuals and socialites altogether and who knew that this was what they were doing. They did so intentionally, sometimes to hide their true shrewdness behind a clumsy facade-- and at other times in an effort to stage a subtle rebellion against others whom they saw as phonies.
I think that he was cut from the same bolt of cloth as his former boss, and that his true strength was of a more tactical, less strategic, sort of outlook. He himself told Michael, "I don't -- look -- I don't have your brain -- uh -- for big deals -- but this is a street thing." But then he shows a great deal of insight and awareness by following this declaration up with the statement, "That Hyman Roth in Miami -- he's backing up those son of a bitches."
I would respectfully submit that these are not the words of some ignorant buffoon. Frankie was razor-sharp, and never mind his rough-hewn mannerisms. As far as the canapes question is concerned, I think he was just making a very clever and extremely funny joke... a wonderful play on words.
He probably knew all about the Romans because the subject interested him and because it was a matter of pride and heritage to him. He might have faltered if you asked him a question about Kafka (while the likes of Crazy Joe Gallo could have remarked intelligently about this subject, which apparently interested him), but no, Frankie was no fool.
For sure, Frankie could have a guy killed with relative ease. Look at how old he was before he was ever nailed on anything substantial-- and only after being the primary informant against himself-- yet, we know for sure that he was a killer and a really tough old bird who had been operating for years.
I always liked Frankie and Pete Clemeza better than even Vito Corleone, and way better than I ever liked Michael. Their ambitions might not have been so lofty, but they were more true to their original code.
Near the end of his life, Vito rambled to Michael about not being subject to the whims of "those big shots", while apparently overlooking the fact that he was himself a big shot. But Vito and Michael seemed to need something more than just the honor (and loot) they received by being a part of their regime. They aspired towards political power and a sort of overlordship that I don't think Clememza or Frankie were ever interested in.
All of which is to say, in answer to dontomasso's original question:
I think that Frankie was indeed the shrewd underboss we saw at the end. And I think he was also a shrewd underboss at the very beginning of the movie too... we just didn't have a chance to understand this about him yet because he hadn't been fully developed as a character at that point in the film.
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: Eddie_The_Cag]
#427217
08/19/07 09:51 PM
08/19/07 09:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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As far as the canapes question is concerned, I think he was just making a very clever and extremely funny joke... a wonderful play on words. Those canopies and Frankies reference to them and peppers and sauseege was a symbolism of sorts. I think that it was inserted in the script by FFC to symbolize the conversion Michael had made between GF and GFII, and at the same time how an old timer like Frankie did not embrace this "new, modern" style that Michael had chosen. That line was another way of showing us how Michael was looking to rid himself of the "old world" illegitimacy back east and forge ahead towards legitimacy by injecting himself into a higher society.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: Don Cardi]
#427219
08/19/07 09:56 PM
08/19/07 09:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 13 Skid Row
Eddie_The_Cag
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Skid Row
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I think that it was inserted in the script by FFC to symbolize the conversion Michael had made between GF and GFII, and at the same time how an old timer like Frankie did not embrace this "new, modern" style that Michael had chosen. I never really considered this before, Don Cardi, but now that you've brought it to my attention I think I would have to agree! Thanks for the insight!
Last edited by Eddie_The_Cag; 08/19/07 09:57 PM.
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: olivant]
#429439
08/26/07 02:35 PM
08/26/07 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 17
Darkshowers
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 17
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In many ways, people tend to be smarter when they are younger despite the knowlege they accumulate as they grow older. That is because their minds are, physiologically, more active. As we get older, there are issues of blood flow to the brain, and nervous system deterioration. Our reactions slow down, our cognition is not as good, even our speech slows down. So, like us all, in his younger days, Frankie was more on top of things so he was able to come up with suggestions about the organizaion of the crime families, etc. Memory does not necessarily have to fade as one gets older, so Frankie is going to remember a heck of alot of what he had previously learned, read, etc.
His drinking from a hose, etc. was a function of his upbringing in the milieu of cultures that is NY: informaility, if you will. His NY domain required that he be phyisically aggressive, not necessarily wise. That domain also subsumed various threats, even to family members. When backed into a corner, Michael threatened Frankie's brother. Now, such a threat is not that difficult to perceive. He's not a buffoon; he's sinply a product of his culture and experience which, sometimes, sharply contrasts with others' cultures and experiences. I thought that perhaps Michael brought Frankie's brother in to threaten him at first, but then after reading The Godfather and The Sicilian novels I thought maybe Michael brought Frankie's brother in to shame him into not testifying against Michael and breaking Omerta. Recall the look between the two brothers at the hearing. To me, Frankie's brother looks absolutely shocked at what Frankie is about to do. Remember how old school Sicilian Frankie's brother is and in The Sicilian, they say that breaking Omerta "the code of silence" which includes ratting out other mafia guys, is something you absolutely do not do. Supposedly, your own family would have to help hunt you down for breaking Omerta.
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: Darkshowers]
#429444
08/26/07 02:58 PM
08/26/07 02:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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In many ways, people tend to be smarter when they are younger despite the knowlege they accumulate as they grow older. That is because their minds are, physiologically, more active. As we get older, there are issues of blood flow to the brain, and nervous system deterioration. Our reactions slow down, our cognition is not as good, even our speech slows down. So, like us all, in his younger days, Frankie was more on top of things so he was able to come up with suggestions about the organizaion of the crime families, etc. Memory does not necessarily have to fade as one gets older, so Frankie is going to remember a heck of alot of what he had previously learned, read, etc.
His drinking from a hose, etc. was a function of his upbringing in the milieu of cultures that is NY: informaility, if you will. His NY domain required that he be phyisically aggressive, not necessarily wise. That domain also subsumed various threats, even to family members. When backed into a corner, Michael threatened Frankie's brother. Now, such a threat is not that difficult to perceive. He's not a buffoon; he's sinply a product of his culture and experience which, sometimes, sharply contrasts with others' cultures and experiences. I thought that perhaps Michael brought Frankie's brother in to threaten him at first, but then after reading The Godfather and The Sicilian novels I thought maybe Michael brought Frankie's brother in to shame him into not testifying against Michael and breaking Omerta. Recall the look between the two brothers at the hearing. To me, Frankie's brother looks absolutely shocked at what Frankie is about to do. Remember how old school Sicilian Frankie's brother is and in The Sicilian, they say that breaking Omerta "the code of silence" which includes ratting out other mafia guys, is something you absolutely do not do. Supposedly, your own family would have to help hunt you down for breaking Omerta. Yes, shame, a minimalist approach that would leave nothing but memories in its wake. But, what if shame didn't work? Was Michael going to say "Darn, I thought that would keep him from testifying. Shucks, now what are we going to do?" Frankie got the shame message, but he also got the "I know who and where your brother" is message. Remember, Vito Genovese had a guy murdered because he wanted to that guy's wife. Rules do get broken especially when it is the Don's butt on the line.
Last edited by olivant; 08/26/07 03:00 PM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#429489
08/26/07 06:23 PM
08/26/07 06:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36 USA
JMDII
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
USA
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Frank had his own family so he couldn't have been too dumb. Paulie...now he was stupid. I think Frank is awesome and Wallach is an excellent actor. He was nominated for awards for this small role.
JMD
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: JMDII]
#429506
08/26/07 07:43 PM
08/26/07 07:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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Frank had his own family so he couldn't have been too dumb. Paulie...now he was stupid. I think Frank is awesome and Wallach is an excellent actor. He was nominated for awards for this small role. I think that case has been pretty well made by the posters above that Frankie had street smarts. In his role as family Don, he didn't necessarily have to exhibit strategic thinking. The negative comments about Wallach are also not necessarily about his performance. It's just that I and others don't picture about him as a mob guy. The closest he came to such a role in the past, I believe, was as the head of forty Mexican bandits in The Magnificent Seven.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: Turnbull]
#429514
08/26/07 08:09 PM
08/26/07 08:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 443 New Jersey
Obsessed With The GodFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 443
New Jersey
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You pose an interesting question, dt. But I don't see a conflict in his behavior, or even a sharp transition: For dramatic effect, Frankie was a bit broadly portrayed at the party. I think the buffoonish behavior was FFC's way of contrasting Michael's "swell" and "legitimate" pose at Anthony's party with a stark reminder of where his roots were. It was, in effect, another example of Michael's struggle to bridge two worlds--the estates of Nevada and the streets of New York. Frankie was also there to emphasize another Michael transition--trusting Roth rather than "your own kind." Frankie was acutely aware of his own limitations--"I, I don't have your head for the big deals..." That's probably one of the reasons Michael chose him to succeed Clemenza. But it didn't mean he was dumb. I was pleased, but not surprised, that he knew the jig was up as soon as he saw his brother sitting next to Michael. His history reading wasn't a surprise either--he had a lot of time on his hands on that Air Force base. And, reading history told him what he needed to do to make sure his family was taken care of. It's among the many reasons why Frankie is my favorite character in the Trilogy. 100% agree I love Frankie! Go to the thread "The Scene That Always Chokes Me Up" I posted the Senate Committie
Johnny Cash & June Carter Cash Fan!
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Re: Pentangeli Smart or Not?
[Re: dontomasso]
#431617
09/05/07 10:23 PM
09/05/07 10:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 443 New Jersey
Obsessed With The GodFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 443
New Jersey
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Watching the Saga over this weekend, I finally saw the back story of why Frankie was drinking water from a hose. When a waiter approached him with a "champagne cocktail," Frankie asked if there was any red wine or beer because his throat was "parched." Thats when Cicci got the hose.
Another great Frankie scene is when he comes home and gets the news that Michael has been waiting there for a half an hour. Quickly he takes off his overcoat and just before he goes into see Michael he slicks his hair back with his hands....great gesture. Yeah, I love that one too!...Slicks his hair back with his hands! What a excellent character he portrayed in the film. It is a shame there was not more of Frankie in the film, more of a story of how he entered the family! I just love Frankie Five Angels
Johnny Cash & June Carter Cash Fan!
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