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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#348902
12/10/06 02:09 PM
12/10/06 02:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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month of Ramadan is holy because of receiving Quran, The celebration is actually the fest of Eid Al-Fetr, in which Muslims celebrate their endurance for keeping from sins and desires through the last month. Is lent a celebration/festival? Ramadan is somehow the same story.
Can you partake in celebrating Christmas? Sure you can. Can I partake in celebrating Eid al-Fetr? Sure I can. But please don't sit there and tell me that your celebrating Christmas has the same spiritual religious meaning to you, a Muslim, as it does to me, a Christian, because as a Christian, Eid al-Fetr does not have the same religious significance for me, as it does for you. All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God? You are welcome to join the feast of Fetr at our house. At the same time, I wouldn't be judging you, and tell you that you are not celebrating the true meaning of Fetr, because you may be doing something better according to the meaning of this feast, which none of us knows for sure. You might as well be better in the eyes of Allah/God than any Muslim who has been fasting the entire month. In short, I don't get to define the true meaning of a holiday, nor do I get to say who celebrates it according to its true meaning and who does not. A little story that we've been told in the school books as the example of such cases, involves Moses and a shepherd. Moses comes across a shepherd who is worshiping God in the most primitive form, almost as if God is a sheep. Moses instructs the shepherd for the right way that one should pray to God. Later God tell Moses that he made one of his favorite people self-conscious, so he does not pray as well as he used to do, and he loved the way he used to pray. I've no idea if this story has been mentioned in Torah or not, but true or false, there is such a deep meaning to it. And that's just something to remember when we all judge everybody else's way of praying/celebrating. Even Moses doesn't get to tell you how to pray, and Jesus tells you Judge not, that ye be not judged.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#348911
12/10/06 04:03 PM
12/10/06 04:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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Nobody is JUDGING. It is also MY belief that a non-Christian cannot truly celebrate the meaning of Christmas. By calling what you do the true way, and therefore any other way the wrong way you're simply judging others' way of celebrating Christmas. It is as simple as that.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: afsaneh77]
#348915
12/10/06 04:21 PM
12/10/06 04:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066 OH, VA, KY
Mignon
Mama Mig
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Mama Mig
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
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I celebrate the season but, I don't celebrate it as being Christ's birth. Imo I don't believe he was born on December 25th. If Af's celebrates the season the way she was brought up in her culture then she is celebrating the true meaning for her.
Af's,
In your culture do you exchange gifts with family and friends?
Last edited by Mignon; 12/10/06 04:22 PM.
Dylan Matthew Moran born 10/30/12
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Mignon]
#348920
12/10/06 04:40 PM
12/10/06 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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No, gift exchanging is not part of our culture. Just commemorating his birth, as miracle of God and messenger of love and peace. But then if you ask about the family in the US, since my aunt is Christian, we do the whole thing, Christmas tree, gift exchanging, etc.
As for Christians here, they actually celebrate on Jan 6, because of the difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar. So it depends who I'm celebrating with.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: afsaneh77]
#348961
12/10/06 05:22 PM
12/10/06 05:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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Nobody is JUDGING. It is also MY belief that a non-Christian cannot truly celebrate the meaning of Christmas. By calling what you do the true way, and therefore any other way the wrong way you're simply judging others' way of celebrating Christmas. It is as simple as that. Of course to ME it is the true way. That's what faith is. And Mig, you raise an interesting point. I don't know when Jesus was actually born, but I believe that Christmas is the celebration of His birth, so that's when I celebrate it.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: afsaneh77]
#349002
12/10/06 07:21 PM
12/10/06 07:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Af's, In your culture do you exchange gifts with family and friends? No, gift exchanging is not part of our culture. Muslim's don't exchange gifts on Eid al-Fetr? All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God? Those who are practicing believers and who have been taught from God what that holy day represents. Christmas represents that Birth of the Messiah, Christ the Saviour, and if you don't believe that Christmas represents those things, than you cannot really celebrate the true meaning of Christmas. Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: SC]
#349004
12/10/06 07:30 PM
12/10/06 07:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I'll gladly play "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if you supply the rest. SC the red nose consigliere, had a very shiney nose, And if you ever saw him, you would even say it glows, All of the BB members, Used to laugh and call him names, Irish never let poor SC, play in any BB games. Then one foggy Christmas eve, Malta came to say, SC with your nose so bright, won't you mod the boards tonight. Then how the members loved him, and they shouted out with glee, SC the red nose Consigliere, you're the man of the BB! Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#349011
12/10/06 08:22 PM
12/10/06 08:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066 OH, VA, KY
Mignon
Mama Mig
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Mama Mig
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
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SC the red nose consigliere, had a very shiney nose, And if you ever saw him, you would even say it glows, All of the BB members, Used to laugh and call him names, Irish never let poor SC, play in any BB games. Then one foggy Christmas eve, Malta came to say, SC with your nose so bright, won't you mod the boards tonight. Then how the members loved him, and they shouted out with glee, SC the red nose Consigliere, you're the man of the BB! Don Cardi Take a bow Don Cardi
Dylan Matthew Moran born 10/30/12
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#349024
12/10/06 11:01 PM
12/10/06 11:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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SC the red nose consigliere, had a very shiney nose, And if you ever saw him, you would even say it glows, All of the BB members, Used to laugh and call him names, Irish never let poor SC, play in any BB games. Then one foggy Christmas eve, Malta came to say, SC with your nose so bright, won't you mod the boards tonight. Then how the members loved him, and they shouted out with glee, SC the red nose Consigliere, you're the man of the BB! Don Cardi Very well done.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: afsaneh77]
#349027
12/10/06 11:32 PM
12/10/06 11:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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[quote=afsaneh77 All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God?
[/quote]
I appreciate the points you have all been making. From the running discourse, I believe that Christmas means means more to you, afsaneh, than it does for most non-Christians. I also believe that SB's heart is touched by Christmas in a very deep way. While you both celebrate, I'm sure the impact of the season consumes you in different pleasant ways.
As for the attempts to define the true meaning of the holiday, Christmas- or any holiday- wasn't created by God, but by men and women. Certainly, I beleve that love and adoration for Christ motivated Christians to honor His advent. The arrival of the Christ child was deemed appropriate for celebration many years after His death and what I believe was His resurrection.
That said, it is a wonderful world when we can all celebrate each others' holidays. I believe that in addition to the spiritual spirit of Christmas, which fascinates me as much now as it did when I was a kid, Christmas has also developed a secular spirit of goodwill and festive cheer. I am ashamed to say that my knowledge of Muslim holy days is basic. I should be more well rounded.
Afsaneh, can you give us a little picture of how Christmas is celebrated by Christians in Iran? I know you join the festivities, but is it common for non-Christians there to celebrate on some level? Just wondering.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#349029
12/11/06 03:47 AM
12/11/06 03:47 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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SB, I gave this a lot of thought. I still disagree with you. I think although we might call the destination different names, and be on different routes, but we all can be led to the same thing. In this way of thinking, different cultures and religions can live peacefully together. I also believe there is not a single true way to reach the destination. I think there are as many ways as the number of human beings for worshiping/celebrating and reaching out to what we feel we've lost and we all are in search for it. My faith, that I confess has not always been in a firm state, is based on the destination, not on a specific route. It is based on worshiping what we all tend to call God although we might have different perceptions of him. But of course, although I voice my disagreement with your way of thinking, I respect your views. SC, OMG! Okay, I'll celebrate with you. Sounds like fun. DC, I celebrate the birth of Messiah, the miracle of God, the sign of God on earth and the promised savior. I can and I do. I don't care what you think about the meaning of my celebration, or if you approve of it or if you don't, since I don't think a holiday belongs to any specific person or group and all can have their own share of it. As for your other question, we don't exchange gifts on any religious holiday. On Fetr, we help poor by donating some gifts, but nothing is being exchanged in the family. In Iran, the secular holiday of New Year is being observed exactly on the moment of beginning of spring, and in that holiday youngsters receive gifts from the elders of the family. Klydon, I agree with you. Even the most secular forms of celebration of Christmas have its share of good will. As for how Christians celebrate in Iran, some have mixed Eastern and Western traditions, but for the most part here is how it goes: They keep "Little Fast" from eating animal products, beginning on December 1st. Then they break the fast on Christmas day (Jan 6), by usually a dinner of chicken or turkey. Exchanging gifts are not customary, but some have adapted this tradition from West. Children receive new cloths and families and friends pay each other visits. Lately you see people dressed as "Papa Noel" (Father Christmas) and decorated pine trees, but these all has been adapted from Christians of Western culture. Christians in Iran call this celebration "Eida Sura" or small holiday. "Eida Gura" or big holiday is referred to Easter and they keep the "Big Fast" before that holiday. As for Muslims, a dinner with family and a commemoration of birth of Messiah is usually observed.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: afsaneh77]
#349046
12/11/06 09:13 AM
12/11/06 09:13 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I'm a born Muslim. Although I've doubts that Jesus was God, I still respect him for being one of the greatest prophets. DC, I celebrate the birth of Messiah, the miracle of God,
Christmas : Celebrating the birth Of Jesus (which is the greek name for Messiah) Christ ( which is the greek word meaning "the annointed one").Messiah : The redeemer sent by God, the saviour. How can you clebrate the birth of the Messiah when your religion teaches that your Messiah has not even come yet and that Jesus Christ is NOT the Messiah? Christians believe that the GIFT that was given to us by GOD was our Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians believe that he was the miracle given to us by God. As I've said in several other posts, it's not that I don't approve of your partaking in the celebration of Christmas, (not that you or anyone else needs my apporoval) or celebrating it they way that you want to. What troubles me is that you claim to celebrate Christmas because of it's religious significance "DC I celebrate the birth of Messiah." when you cannot celebrate the religious significance of Christmas because you are of Muslim teachings who has "doubts that Jesus was god," and you look upon him as being just one of the "greatest prophets." Again, you can celebrate it, as it is your right to celebrate anything or any holy day that YOU want to. I am not disputing that aspect with you. But my point is that you are a Muslim who has been brought up with Muslim beliefs, so therefore you cannot celebrate Christmas with the same spiritual meaning, or for the same spiritual reasons that a Christian celebrates it. I mean techinically you can, anyone can, but you really don't because you are a Muslim, and it is not what the Muslim faith teaches you or believes in. Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#349056
12/11/06 10:04 AM
12/11/06 10:04 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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I ask you DC, where in Islamic beliefs there's anything against the account of coming of Messiah? Actually, that's the exact name Jesus is being called in Quran, and what we call him: Masih. He was sent by God to redeem the people of Israel. The account of his birth is in fact in Quran, as how he was born form virgin Mary and how he talked in the cradle, cured sick and brought dead back to life. However, it is also pointed out that when God ascended Jesus to Heaven, asked him why he told people he was God, and he said that he has not done such a thing.
Personally I'm the kind of person who gathers what I think is best for me in all religions. Therefore having read that, I've doubts that Jesus was God.
I understand your point, the reason we celebrate might be on different levels. You celebrate the birth of God, and I celebrate the coming of Messiah, the prophet who was born to redeem his people, the one whose birth and life was a miracle. Still, I don't see why we couldn't forget about spiritual level score boards and look at what we all can agree on.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#349073
12/11/06 11:36 AM
12/11/06 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902 New York
SC
Consigliere
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Consigliere
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
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I understand your point, the reason we celebrate might be on different levels.
FINALLY! That was the whole point from the start of this conversation. The point that both SB and I were trying to make. Then how come I'm not allowed to "celebrate"? .
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: SC]
#349084
12/11/06 12:11 PM
12/11/06 12:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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Because I'm a witch! Actually, I would like to be Befana, the Italian Christmas witch. Doesn't that sound like a fun thing to be?? SC, I certainly didn't mean that the way it may have come out. And I apologize if I offended you. It's all semantics, isn't it?
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Don Cardi]
#349309
12/11/06 10:02 PM
12/11/06 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 572
Jimmy Buffer
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 572
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I just say Happy Festivus.
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
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Re: Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
[Re: Jimmy Buffer]
#349320
12/12/06 06:27 AM
12/12/06 06:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
Lavinia from Italy
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
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I don't mean to be offensive with anyone, but since Christmas is a Christian solemnity I don't see the reason why we should say Happy SOMETHING instead of Happy CHRISTMAS. This is a RELIGIOUS event, not just a seasonal occasion for overshopping and overeating and having a couple of days off. Christians - especially Christians! - should remember that.
And honestly this rather hypocritical mania of being overcorrect drives me mad. Evangelization is a task of crucial importance for Christians. Saying Happy Christmas I, as a Christian, mean to announce the birth of Jesus Christ, the son of God. If atheists or non Christians (not the ones of the likes of my dearest friend Afi, who unfortunately is a rare bird) feel offended by that, it's their problem.
I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be truth (Blanche/A streetcar named desire)
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