As far as I'm concerned, during book and movie, they told about black people as about n++++z and animals(santino for instance), but I haven't seen any negative action towards black. They never showd they hit niggaz, didn't they?

They probably didnt hit any because there werent any in the rackets. Perhaps on some level there were bookies and loan sharks who may have dealt with minorities, and perhaps legs may have been broken.

We didn't see any African-Americans murdered or threatened; but we did see one ethnic minority bigwig get assassinated: the Semitic (specifically Jewish) Hyman Roth.

Frankie Pentangeli displays his prejudice when he pejoratively refers to Roth as "that Jew in Miami" and when he accuses Michael of giving his loyalty to "a Jew before your own blood."

Regarding dontomasso's post, I recall this conversation Sonny started at the dinner table in the first Godfather:

Quote

Sonny: You know n***ers are havin' a good time with our [word?] up there in Harlem, drivin' them new Cadillacs -- payin' fifty percent on a bet.

Carlo: I knew that was gonna happen soon as they started makin' big money.

I wasn't sure what this meant when I first heard it. Does it mean that blacks were recruited as bookies so that the crime families could take advantage of money-making opportunities in Harlem?

Is this historically accurate? (Well, it probably is if a meticulous director like FFC included it. But then again it was just a passing line in the movie, so maybe it wasn't checked for accuracy.)

I'm not exactly sure what a bookie does. I know it has something to do with betting. So I gather people placed their bets on the outcomes of sporting events. But if they won, the bookie gets half the proceeds? Is this how it works, and is this how the bookie makes his money? Oh, such naive questions. Somebody educate me.

Actually in GFII Frank Pentangeli makes a reference to several minority groups when he is complaining about the Rosato brothers recruiting African Americans and Hispanics. Of course he does not use those terms, but out of respect to the other memebers here on the boards who may be from either of the above mentioned ethnic background, I choose to use the proper terms.


Don Cardi

Well to again reference Frank Pentangeli's rant to Michael in GFII about the Rosato Brothers, in real life, after Crazy Joe Gallo was released from prison, he began recruiting African Americans and Hispanics into his crew. This was not looked upon too fondly by the old timers in the mob, as for the most part the African Americans were normally used by the mob just for Bookmaking and Loansharking in areas like Harlem. But they were never to be an actual part of a crew.

Don Cardi

Even for being a button your mother has to be italian! Wath Rossato brothers were doing was an infamia! (to the eyes of Frankie)

They are mentioned, yes, but very little. And it's probably evident. You don't want a movie having "Fuck Niggaz" here and "Damn *****" there. Not the best thing to be going around.

Interesting Don Cardi. Can you tell me the time period (1950s? 1960s? etc) in which Joe Gallo was active, specifically after he was released from prison?

Sure. I did a Bio on Gallo a while back over in the REAL LIFE MAFIA Thread. here's a link :


http://www.gangsterbb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000895

You might want to read the whole topic and replies that are posted under the Bio. Some really good stuff. Enjoy!


Don Cardi

Joe Gallo was a great poseur after he got out of prison in 1970. One of his poses was as a "friend" of blacks and Hispanics. He recruited both in prison to beef up his organization, but for one purpose: so he could muscle Joe Columbo into giving him a huge chunk of money and territory when he got out. He didn't do it out of any "love" of minorities, or because he saw that "times were changing." But his charade with blacks and Hispanics helped him get popular with politicians and celebrities who were fascinated with him as a would-be "civil rights-conscious Mafioso." Yeah, sure.
The Mafia has always been highly bigoted. The most realistic utterance in GF is by the Don of Cleveland at the Dons' meeting. He wants drug trafficking confined to "the dark people, the coloreds...they're all animals anyway, so let them lose their souls to drugs." That's how the Mob operates.

I know that you have more knowledge on this subject than me Turnbull, but doesn't the issue have to do more with organization than assheaded prejudice? Back in the time period represented in the first two Godfather movies I don't believe that Blacks had hierarchical criminal organizations with the strength, influence and cunning of the Italians. Even today, the majority of criminal activity done by Blacks is of an unorganized, "street" nature. However, the Mob of today does cooperate with organized crime groups of other ethnic backgrounds such as the Chinese, Colombians, Japanese and Russians. While I'm not doubting that there was definitely a fair amount of bigotry involved with the decision of Mobsters not to recruit Blacks into their Families, wasn't the primary concern money? I believe that if Blacks had huge profit making operations back in the day the Mob's greed would overcome their prejudice.

As any number of documentaries, books, etc. point out, blacks in America were into gambling and other forms of "organized crime" going way back to the turn of the century. Yes, Madam Queen and Bumpy Johnson were real life black gangsters in Harlem. In fact, they were targeted by Dutch Schultz for takeover. Of course, as even the Godfather novel points out, back then a black person could not bribe police, etc. So, it was difficult for black gangsters to work as effectively as they could or expand outside of heavily populated black areas. Even today black gangsters have a tough time.

Olivant, your post illustrates the presence of a societal prejudice against Blacks which affected legal as well as illegal enterprises. I don't deny that this prejudice existed and does still exist. That there were Black gangsters who were involved in organized crime is a fact I don't deny. What I seek to find out is whether Italian Mafiosi chose and choose not to deal with Blacks in any meaningful way solely because of their skin colour or because they don't see large profit opportunities in the activities that Black gangsters are involved in.

The novel goes into it a little more. When Vito was first brought home from the hospital Sonny was determined to get some of the Family's street businesses (i.e. the numbers) back running again. When the mob war started the Corleones lost control of some of these businesses because they were busy protecting themselves and fighting off the other Families. In Harlem, for instance, the blacks were formerly "runners" but became bankers in their own right when the war started. Tom Hagen told Sonny the blacks would not voluntarily go back to being runners again. Sonny's answer was to loosen Clemenza's regime on them.

Its further written that there was no problem in getting the rackets back from the blacks because the police would not accept any payoffs from blacks then because of racial distrust.

Well, in the book Al Neri had problems with a murder involving an afro-american people,(Mario Puzo says Al Neri didn`t give a *** about them) he killed a black man when he was a cop and was sent to jail and Michael helped him to get out and joined the family.

In the GF Returns there is a clear discrimination and racist atitude from Mark Winegardner, everytime he reffered to afro-american people, he says "negroes" a non-polite atitude.

Isn`t Mark Winegardner a racist?

I don't like where this topic is heading. It's one thing to talk about generalized racial undertones of a movie or a book. But to start specualting about someones view of ethnic origins in regards to their writing of a ficticious story, someone that we really know nothing about, and then labeling that real life person a racist is just plain wrong.


Don Cardi

That's true DC, but let's agree that the argument Don Pappo made could very well indicate that there is a possibility that Mark WineG. is racial prejudiced....

A bookie is a low level independent illegal businessman that takes bets on "numbers" and sporting events. He usually turns his "action" into a "house" where he is paid a commission based on the amount he turns in.

Most action with blacks is with the daily number. The odds are 1000-1, and most bookies pay off only 600/700-1. When Sonny said they are only paying off 50%, he meant that instead of the bookie paying off $600 on a one dollar bet, the bookie was only paying off $500 and pocketing the other $100 for himself, plus his commission from the house.

NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. He was, as Puzo was, representing how The CORLEONES felt about them, and how many whites/Italians were racist and some still are. It was just how it was. (Yogi Berra moment)

They both referred to African-Americans as "******s" because that's how it was in that time.

As far as Winegardner goes, he was writng a story that was set in the late 1950's and early 1960's, a time during which the term "Negro" was perfectly acceptable.

I would guess that's why he used the term, and I wouldn't read anything more into it.

Jasani: I would guess that racial prejudice is just as rife among Mafiosi as among non-Mafiosi - maybe even more. Also, for alot of reasons, the black community in America does not have as much disposable income as the non-black community. So, it may be simply an investment decision on the part of the Mafia. They don't have unlimited resources. But I think that Puzo hit it on the head. Many people back then (and many still) didn't respect black people. And many were really, really prejudiced.