that "it was Barzini all along" who whacked Sonny? Ive seen this 50 times and cant see the logic or where he figured this out.

Any help?

Notice in that scene that, although Vito called the meeting, Barzini sits at the head of the table. Barzini is first to respond after Vito says his piece, and Barzini speaks for the others when he says that Vito's refusal to "share" the judges "is not the action of a friend." Barzini then sets the terms: "He must let us draw the water from the well...of course he can present a bill for such services..." And when Vito says that he's willing to make accommodations, Barzini right away jumps to a conclusion: "Then it is agreed: The traffic in drugs will be allowed, and Don Corleone will give it protection in the East. And there will be the peace." He's calling all the shots.
Notice, too, that Barzini is the only one smoking a cigarette. All the "moustache Petes" are smoking cigars.

I believe that Vito suspected Barzini all along because, as he later told Tom, "Tattaglia is a pimp...alone he could never have outfought Santino." In fact, you might look at the meeting as a trap that Vito set for Barzini--and Barzini stepped in it: by asserting his leadership, he confirmed to Vito that he was behind the war all along.

Turnbull, you are correct, but there is more. When they strike the deal it is supposedly between Corleone and Tattaglia, but note that before the two embrace, Tattaglia looks to Barzini and asks what guarantee does he have that Corleone wont eventually regain strength and seek his own vengence. It is Barzini who then says Corleone is a man of his word and that they did not have to give assurances as if they were lawyers. Also when Corleone and Tattaglia "embrace" Barzini is the only other person standing. All of this makes it clear that Tattaglia is looking to Barzini for guidance and not the other way around.

Which brings up another question; Did Sollozo approach the Tattaglias first with this deal and in turn did they go to Barzini for backing? Or did Sollozo first get Barzini to back him and then cut the Tattaglias in to use them as the front family?


Don Cardi

Sollozzo probably knew the NY underworld scene, and also that Barzini was the most powerful after don Corleone. I think he went to Barzini first, and then to Tattaglia, with the guarantee that Barzini would back him (Tattaglia) up.

About Barzini acting as the 'leader' during the meeting; stupid move of him, he could as well have said: "Don Corleone, I'm the one who's betraying you."

I agree that Barzini was behind it all along.

By the way, the reason Barzini stood up when Vito and Phillip embraced was to make it more convenient for them to physically do so. Also, if you study that scene real close you can see how FFC framed it on purpose so that Vito would see it. The positions of the Dons in that scene reveals a very subtle "B" formed by their bodies or, as it is called, the Barzini Code. Vito knew right then and there that it was Barzini.

Which brings up another question; Did Sollozo approach the Tattaglias first with this deal and in turn did they go to Barzini for backing? Or did Sollozo first get Barzini to back him and then cut the Tattaglias in to use them as the front family?


Don Cardi [/QB][/QUOTE]

I would think Sollozzo approached Barzini, who in turn used Tattaglia as a "buffer."

I believe Sollozzo approached Barzini first with his drug deal. As I've posted before:

Sollozzo wanted to build a highly profitable retail sales/distribution network in the US. He needed the permission and protection of the Five Families, as well as their financial, operational and political support. He knew the Corleones were on top, but he probably figured that Vito would be too conservative to go for his deal. So, I’m guessing, Sollozzo approached Barzini first. He knew Barzini was #2, and would see that the money he’d earn from a drugs deal with Sollozzo would help him push past Vito to become the top Mafia Don.
But Barzini had his own agenda:
I’m guessing that Barzini told Sollozzo that, while he was in favor of the drugs business, he couldn’t support Sollozzo openly: Vito would feel threatened if he saw his arch-rival, Barzini, tapping into this rich vein of money, and would work against Sollozzo. Instead, Barzini suggested that Sollozzo approach Tattaglia. Why? Because Vito wouldn’t see Tattaglia "the pimp" as a threat; and Tattaglia already had a network of hookers, pimps, nightclubs and whorehouses where drugs could be distributed. Barzini must have convinced Sollozzo that if Tattaglia provided the high-risk/high-profile operational support, Vito might give him money and political protection.
So, why did Barzini seemingly turn down this immense source of profits and give Tattaglia the chance to get rich (and powerful) quick? Because he knew that Vito wouldn’t want any part of the drugs business—especially if Tattaglia was involved. Vito, “notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex,” had no respect for Tattaglia and wouldn’t touch anything that Tattaglia was involved with.
IMO, Barzini was setting up a deal that he was pretty certain would fail. He knew Sollozzo, as a “man who respects himself,” would try to kill Vito. If he succeeded, Barzini would inherit the top spot. If he failed, the Corleones would blame the Tattaglias and declare war on them. Either way, Barzini would pick up the pieces. The other Dons would go along: neither Barzini nor the other Dons would dare to try to kill Vito on their own, but if Sollozzo was willing to take the risk, who’d complain? In fact, the failed attempt made Sollozzo desperate. I’m guessing that, in order to survive, he had to promise all the Dons a piece of the drugs action in order to get their support in the war against the Corleones.
Clever Barzini! Too bad he underestimated Michael.

Thank you TB. Such fantastic insight. Great post!

So then, do you think that the Tattaglia's were aware that Barzini was behind Sollozo the whole time? I would say no. Technically they too were duped by Barzini and Sollozo.


Don Cardi

Maybe yes. In order to make such a move against Vito, they certainly were aware that they were backed up by Barzini. On the other hand, I find it unlikely that they were aware of Barzini's degree of involvement in the business. I think they also understood that at the meeting, where Barzini emerged as the peacemaker and as the new capo while Tattaglia was the one that was exposed as a rival of the Corleones.

Great thread...

I would guess that Barzini would have told Tatttaglia to minimize his involvement. I suspect that Sollozzo would have gone to Tattaglia with the proposal, and Tattaglia, who likely was in favor of it may have asked about the other families, and Sollozzo would have characteristically said "Let me worry about Barzini." It is also possible that Barzini told Tattaglia something like "If you do business with this man I won't stand in your way. Your problem will be with the Corleones."

The novel says that Tattaglia had been "led around by the nose" by Barzini. I'm guessing that Tattaglia might have started out his relationship with Sollozzo thinking that he and Barzini were equals, or that he was the top guy in the potential drug deal. But when the lead started flying, I believe Tattaglia became utterly dependent on Barzini.

Why would Sollozzo approach the Tattaglias, a family known for prostitution? I think that Sollozzo approached Barzini about a drug deal right from the beginning and the Tattaglias were just a front. Why a front? Because Barzini wanted to displace Vito as the top don and the drug deal was just the thing to do it. Barzini knew that if Sollozzo went to Vito with Barzini's backing, Vito would turn him down or would exact quite a price for his support.

But I still think that the Barzini Code played a part!

Turnbull -

Impressive analysis. But there is one further wrinkle that needs to be unpacked. When Sollozzo is meeting with Vito and the others, he makes it appear as though the Corleones are the first family he approached with his deal. When Vito asks what the Tattaglia's interest in the deal is, the Turk makes it seem as though he is surprised that Vito would know about the Tattaglias' involvement; he turns to Tom and says, "My compliments," i.e., you managed to get some information I tried to keep secret from you. But Sollozzo's expression of surprise is a brilliant bluff. As you say, Barzini doesn't want to have the fingerprints of his involvement visible. And what better way to ensure this than to make the Corleones think that, when they "learn" of the Tattaglias' involvement with Sollozzo, they have cleverly managed to acquire information that was supposed to remain secret? By pretending that the Tattaglia's involvement was supposed to be kept secret from the Corleones, and arranging for someone to "leak" this "secret" to Hagan, Barzini is sure to be kept out of the spotlight.

~90caliber

first off... Welcome 90cal.
I don't believe that this was an indication that this information was to be kept a secret... it was just information that was not offered by Sollozo and he was merely complimenting Tom on the "correctness" of his information. Sollozo would never show Vito that he intended on being less than completely upfront and honest while trying to make a deal of this calibur. And in essense, this is not a bluff at all. Sollozo is, indeed, being backed by the Tataglias (as a front of course).

Ya but the false information that Tattaglia was backing the Turk would EVENTUALLY have to be planted in the Corleone's ear. It would make sense that Tom's information was a false bug intended by Sollozo/Barzini.

yes, this is true, BUT... I believe that that part of the conversation would have come out by Sollozo b/c it was a part of the deal that the Tattaglias would guarantee the Corleone's investment... i think the whole acknowledgement of Tom by Sollozo was basically saying "Good work Tom, but I was going to tell him"

Welcome, 90caliber, and you made a very good point. But I think that Sollozzo didn't intend to keep Tattaglia's backing secret, or at least not for long. I think he was just being succinct in not mentioning Tattaglia. Or, perhaps he knew that Vito disapproved of Tattaglia's business and he didn't want to mention Tattaglia unless he had to.

But the Tattaglia connection had to come out sooner rather than later. Sollozzo was a newcomer to New York (probably an illegal immigrant at that!). If Vito were going to risk a big chunk of money, he'd have to know that Sollozzo had allies in NY who could provide him with additional backing, distribution channels, run interference with other mobsters, etc. I also agree with FrankWhite: his "my compliments" to Tom was a way of showing respect but he was gonna say so anyway.

Thanks for the replies. These exchanges are very stimulating and thought provoking.

One fact which causes me to cling to my theory is this: in the novel the narrator says, after Vito asks Sollozzo what the Tattaglia's interest in the deal is, "For the first time Sollozzo seemed to be nervous." The expression of nervousness indicates either that he did in fact feel like he got caught with his pants down, or that he wanted Vito to think that he felt like he got caught with his pants down. The word "seemed" indicates, I think, that the latter is the case -- that the nervousness was feigned, for the reasons I give in my original post. If the nervous expression was real, rather than feigned, Puzo would not, I believe, have added the word "seemed."

I agree that the involvement of the Tattaglia's had to be revealed sooner rather than later. My argument is that Sollozzo and Barzini will expect that Vito would never believe that Sollozzo is laying all his cards on the table in the meeting. By making Vito believe that he has discovered what the Turk wasn't revealing, the spotlight stays off Barzini.

Personally I never thought about it that way 90 caliber. But I don't think there is anything conclusive that could contradict your theory. Its obviously very plausible.

All of this raises another question. Sollozzo would not have tried to hit Don Corleone unless he had cleared it with Tattaglia and Barzini. After the hit happens, Tom advises Sonny to make the deal with Sollozzo. Tom is pretty sure that all the families will line up against the Corleones just to prevent another war, and that ultimately the Corleones would become outcasts. Sonny doesnt want to take this advice, and of course it is at that moment that Michael steps up and says they are going to "kill Pop" no matter what. For whatever reason, the Corleone family must have already been in decline and considered to be vulnerable. Sollozzo tells Tom during their "meeting" that the Don was "slippin" and boasts that ten years ago he could not have "gotten to him." With the death of Luca Brasi, and the wounding of the Don they are futher weakened, and we see this when Moe Green insults mIchael by telling him how the Corleones "don't have that kind of muscle anymore" and that they are "being run out of New York," and that he made his bones while Michael was going out with cheerleaders, and finally the ultimate..."I TAWK TO BARZINI..." with whom he can make a deal and still keep his hotel. Here Green is telling Michael that he doesnt fear the Corleones any more, and that no one else does either.

Yes DonT... I find this interesting as well. There is never mention of the declination of the Corleone family by anyone in the family, nor does Michael seem to believe this when taking over. I also noticed that Don Corleone seems to be held in a very esteemed light during the meeting w/ the heads of families (maybe this is just from past respect earned). Is the family delusional? Do they have a false sense of security? Or are they aware of this?

I think the respect they show Vito in the meeting is simply something left over from the old days.

The family was not delusional, so much as Santino was. He was in his own father's words a "bad Don" who did not understand the fact that the family had lost some of its strength. Vito was too far removed from the street, and the whole family got fat, happy and a little sloppy (kind of like the Roman Empire in its final centuries --- as Tom Hagen pointed out in GF II).

Once he took over Michael understood that the family was not very strong, and this is the genius of his move -- killing everyone at once to level the playing field. They have pretty much made a comeback by GFII ....note Frankie's line that the Corleones should go after Roth and the Rosatos "while we still got the muscle."

Not necessarily. If the Corleones were self-evidently slippin' before Sollozzo came on the scene, then Barzini or one of the other Dons might have made a move on them on their own. Please bear with this scenario:
--I'm guessing that Sollozzo first approached Barzini with the drug deal, believing that Barzini was the new top-guy-in-waiting and would have the most to gain from the riches to be made from drugs. But Sollozzo also needed Vito's political clout. Barzini probably egged him on, but told him that he should work through Tattaglia, whom Vito wouldn't regard as a threat, and keep his (Barzini's) support quiet.
--After Vito turned him down, Sollozzo proposed whacking Vito. Tat and Barz were probably wary of this. But Sollozzo probably convinced them that the hit would be easy because the Don was getting complacent about security (maybe what he meant by "slippin'"); that Sonny was hot for the deal, and that Tom would know it was the right thing. All of this would fall into place with Vito dead.
--Barzini, the smarter of the two Dons, would have thought: "Hey, I wouldn't move on Vito by myself. But what the hell, if Sollozzo's willing to take the risks on his own, and with Tattaglia (not me) identified to the Corleones as his ally, what have I got to lose? I bet the other Dons'll go along for the same reason--they wouldn't do it on their own, but they have nothing to lose."

Obviously the Goliath Beetle in the ointment was Vito's survival, plus his smarts. His shooting, Sonny's death and the long war weakened the Corleones. But Vito, clever fellow, played possum and exaggerated his weakness, the better to lull his enemies into complacency. Michael played the same game. Now the enemies were slippin.' The way they slipped was to show their hands and thus expose their bad intentions: Moe Green saying that the Don didn't have that much clout anymore; Barzini assuming the chairmanship of the Dons' Convention and then moving in on Tessio's territories; Tessio setting up the fatal meeting, etc.
So, as it turned out, the Corleones' weakness was temporary.

I pretty much agree with you TB, but I am still stuck with the line "could I have gotten to him 10 years ago?" I think you are right about Barzini using Tattaglia as a potential fall guy, and you are also right that Barzini figured "what the hell" when Sollozzo came to him with the proposition that he whack Vito Corleone. I think the other families saw that Sonny as the putative heir would not have the smarts his father had, and with Vito out of the way things would go their way. However, I do not belive that ten years prior Barzini or even Tattaglia would have given someone like Sollozzo and his men permission to make a hit on Vito Corleone. This is because Sollozzo was just off the boat, and because he and his people would carry out the operation. There would just be too much room for treachery in such a plan, and if the Corleone street people were on top of their game they may have foiled the plot before it ever got off the ground. I think ten years before the hit on Vito, Barzini would have told Sollozzzo, "look kid you go peddle your drugs and we'll protect you as will Tattaglia to be best of our ability, but you are going to have to live without the Corleone's political protection, and if the police catch up with you, we've got no involvement....but no, you aren't going to try to hit Vito Corleone."

The novel states that the fighting qualities of the Corleone regimes had declined over the past decade. I suppose that other Corleone qualities had declined also. So, its preeminent position in the underworld was not as secure as it had been.

But, what if Vito said yes to the deal. How would that have affected Barzini's ambition. If Barzini had ambitions, wouldn't that have been a setback to such ambitions?

But, it all seems incongruous. How does anyone know what Vito's answer will be? Noone knows about he Sonny hole in the Corleone armour until the Sollozzo meeting. If Vito does say no, how does killing Vito further the drug deal? It may enhance Barzini's position in the underworld, but it does not enhance the drug traffic. Sonny doesn't have Vito's political, legal, or personal infuence. It just doesn't make sense.

I cannot recall such a conversation from Tom.

In that scene, Frankie commented that the Corleones used to be like the Roman Empire. Tom retorted "It was once."

ooooooooohhhhhhh... thank you Olivant. I remember now. You're talking about when Tom is explaining to Frankie what must be done for his family to be taken care of.

dt, my guess is that "Ten years ago, could I have gotten to him?" was a bit of bravado on Sollozzo's part, designed to convince Tom that Vito was a declining guy who had to be pushed aside to make way for the "new order." In other words: "He deserved to die because he made it easy for me to get to him"--Darwin Comes to the Mafia.
But that doesn't mean I think your analysis is wrong--far from it. Vito probably was getting complacent after at least a decade of relative peace in the NY Mob scene. Ten years earlier, he and his people probably would have been sharper, more on their guard; and potential enemies would have been warier of moving in on him.
As you probably know: the novel states that, about a decade before the Sollozzo affair, a group of "mad dog Irish killers, with sheer Emerald Isle elan," burst through Vito's protection, and shot and nearly killed him before they were cut down, leading to Sonny's rise. I got the impression from that passage that it was less a case of Vito being careless, more of the Irish shooters' suicidal determination to get him at any cost. This always puts me in mind of an observation attributed to JFK, just weeks before his own assassination: Anyone could shoot the President as long as he had a high-powered rifle and didn't care about getting caught.