I've always felt that Michael should've used Tom's talents better. Tom may have been able to help him realize his hope of legitimacy. After Sonny's death, Michael never fully trusted in Tom, but I think that was a real mistake on Michael's part. Tom was smart and loyal.

In reading all these posts, it does become abundantlyclear that Michael lacked his father's abilities to deal with potential enemies. As someone has pointed out, when Vito turns Sollozzo down, he does so with grace. He tells him he wishes him luck and success in his new venture so long as he does not interfere with Vito. I even think hepredicts Sollozzo will do well. Additionally, in GFII we learn that even though Vito never trusted Hyman Roth, they worked together and made a fortune. Look at how differently Michael treats people. When Geary threatens him Michael sneers and tells Geary not only will he not bribe him, but he wants Geary to pay the fee himself. Then Michael "muscles" Geary by having a prostitute killed and then blackmailing him. Faced with a similar problem, Vito had a horse killed and got what he wanted. As for Roth, there was no reason for Michael to virtually let Roth know what he was thinking when he pulled out of the Havana deal.
There was no need to confront him over Frank Pentangeli. If Roth posed a threat, why would Michael want to give him even the slightest hint that he was on to him?

Don T, again, this all goes back to the cultural differences between Vito and Michael. Old school thinking vs. New School thinking. The old time mentality of taking care of the "needs" in life versus the modern world mentality of getting whatever one "wants" in life.

Let us not forget that Vito was basically on his own at an extremely young age and was self taught in the he grew up in the streets and learned how to use people to get what was beneficial to himself, and did so in a way as to not offend them, which always left the door open for more. Michael on the other hand is really born with a silver spoon in his mouth and does not have the background that Vito did as a foundation for his personality.


Don Cardi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by olivant:
Turnbull, I think you're competely off on this. The Mafia was in its heyday in the 40s and 50s. What is this small pond you refer to?
Ca. 1945-46, the Mafia's activities had been constricted for years because WWII had taken most of the able-bodied men who could serve in the Mafia (and serve as their suckers for loan-sharking, etc.) into the Armed Forces. There was very little non-military construction, and even less highway-building. Freight hijacking was off because most freight was military and guarded by the Armed Forces. And the economy was tightly regulated by the government and restricted by a paucity of overseas trade. The only new racket the Mob had during the war years was counterfeit or stolen rationing stamps. One of the reasons that Vito Genovese called the famous and ill-starred 1957 Apalachin meeting was to bless the traffic in drugs--desperately needed by the Mob as a new source of revenue. They did ok during the Forties and Fifties, especially because RICO didn't exist, and the FBI paid them no heed. But the "pond" was relatively small compared to the ocean they swam in later with construction rackets, dope, stock market swindles, airport hijacking, etc.
In addition, I didn't infer that Michael wanted to be organized crime's emperor. He conducted his affairs in shark infested waters and took appropriate actions to protect those affairs. When business opportunities opened up, he attempted to take advantage of them. Pensate!
In the novel, which doesn't get to his "emperor" stage, he killed only Tattaglia and Barzini, which could be called "appropriate" to protecting his affairs since they were the up-front enemies. But in GF, he whacks all the Dons. Was that an appropriate or proportional response to the threat? In II, he's becoming dominant in Nevada, maneuvers to take over Roth's Cuban empire, and still dominates New York through Pentangeli. And in III, when he's supposedly "legitimate," he's the guarantor of the Vatican Bank and about to be the dominant peson in International Immobiliare. That suggests emperor.

Pentangeli couldn't even deal with the Rosato brothers.

Enzo, you are wrong here. Pentangelli represented the Corleone's in New York once Clemenza died. And Clemenza controlled New York under Michael. Just because the Rosatto brothers were getting out of control does not mean that The Corleones were not dominating New York. As a matter of fact by Pentagelli coming to Mike to ask for permission to move against The Rosattos is proof in itself that Mike still controlled New York.


Don Cardi

How do we know Clemenza was NY boss of the Corleone's? I thought NY was the Corleone homebase, under the direct control of the Corleone's. Tessio's territory was Brooklyn, I think (it's been a long time since I've seen GF), and that's a part of NY.

However, forgive me my disknowledge about Pentangeli, but he seemed rather 'weak' in the movies.

Before the Great Massacre of 1955, Vito (then Michael) was the boss. Tessio controlled Brooklyn under Vito, then Micahel. But when Tessio was whacked, Neri was dispatched to lead Tessio's troops. Then Neri went to Nevada with Michael, leaving all of the "olive oil business" to Clemenza.

And to add to what Turnbull said, in a conversation between Mike and Frankie, Mike tells Frankie something like :

Clemenza promised the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx before he died. You took over, and you didn't give it to them.

And Frankie tells him that Clemenza promised them UGOTZ!

This is more proof that Clemenza controlled New York under The Corleones.

It sounds as though you may be mixing up events from GFI with GFII.

Sorry, Enzo, on this one you are wrong.


Don Cardi

Yes, it should be pretty clear that Frankie succeeded Clemenza as Corleone Don (he succeeded Michael). I think what is confusing Enzo is that Mike, although not directly running a NY style family out in Nevada, still has as much influence and control over the Corleone family as he wants to have. Another thing is that FFC took a few liberties with the organization of the Mafia by having Michael conducting business way out in Nevada. His doing so parallels somewhat Joe Bonanno and Tony Accardo (Chicago) who, though both were "retired", still got command responses from their respective family members when they chose to exercise that command.

By the way, I just watched GFII a few hours ago and reviewed the novel. In neither did I detect that Michael was uneasy or unsure at the funeral or in his novel conversation with Tom. In fact, in that conversation he states that the Corleone family is alot stronger than anyone thinks.

I, too, just watched GFII this afternoon. Michael's continuing involvement in NY is made more clear by two statements that are made by Pentangeli.

1. He says to Fredo "You remember Willie Cicci who was in Brooklyn with old man Clemenza," which shows that Clemenza took over Tessio's old territory after his death and ran the NY operation.

2. During his argument with Michael in Nevada, Frankie tells Michael that he wants to be left alone to run his family, and Michael reminds him, "Tua famiglia ancora porta il nome Corleone," which translates to "Your family still carries the Corleone name."

I have a question about all this. In GFII Mike talks about how happy he is that "this house" never went to strangers. He tells Frankie that first it went to Clemenza and then to him. Then he looks around the room and shows Frankie where his father's desk used to be.

My question is was this the house in the Corloene Mall or the house that Clemenza had in GF I (which may have been a house the Corleones owened before they bought the mall. The reason for the question is that at the end of GFI there is a moving van out front and a sign indicating the property is for sale.

Pentangeli's house is the same one in which Vito used to live (in the mall). Michael speaks about how quiet he'd have to be when playing near his father's office.

The mall was to have been sold but the storyline was changed for Part II.

There probably was a sale of the property of some sort made for appearance sake. Remember that The Corleone's no longer wanted any "outward" ties or appearances of having anymore connections to New York. Perhaps the estate was owned under Genco Olive Oil and being that The Corleone's were moving out west, to go into the Casino business, they liquidated all their interests in New York. At least "on paper." In all likelyhood the property was sold to another corporation, maybe one that Clemenza used for his "legitimate" front.


Don Cardi

This is an inconsistency between GFI and GFII.

According to the novel, the Mall houses are sold, and this is shown in the film by the removal vans.

The Roth-part of GFII, not being based on the book, implies that the sale never took place.

dontomasso, I think you make an excellent point about Barzini, Vito, and Michael. Michael is of a new different generation. Vito was the most respected of the Don's and Barzini was willing to begin and change with the tides. Michael on the other hand was creating rules as he went along under the guise of creating legitimacy within the family. He was not an active member of the family like his brother Sonny and was not completely privy to the protocol. However, Michael makes a much better Don than Sonny would have made.