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Re: Kay's abortion
#29504
06/05/05 06:21 PM
06/05/05 06:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
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Books and movies have perpetuated this idea about hordes of bodyguards accompanying Mafiosi, etc. wherever they go. It's just not true. There is no real time evidence of such. Besides the cops, other Mafiosi, and reporters, people don't even know who they are. In fact, most cops, and reporters, and Mafiosi don't know who they are. Assuming that other Mafiosi are following the rules, Kay would have been untouchable. Even if she were attended, she could have easily desguised her abortion as any medical procedure.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29506
06/05/05 07:51 PM
06/05/05 07:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Originally posted by olivant: Books and movies have perpetuated this idea about hordes of bodyguards accompanying Mafiosi, etc. wherever they go. It's just not true. Assuming that other Mafiosi are following the rules, Kay would have been untouchable. Even if she were attended, she could have easily desguised her abortion as any medical procedure. Yes, but the other Mafiosi were NOT following the rules! They shot up Michael's home, in his bedroom, where his children play with their toys, where he sleeps with Kay. So obviously the Mafiosi did NOT care if Kay or the children were killed in their attempt to kill Michael! So therefore DMC's question, in the cirlce of what had taken place, is NOT out of the realm! Michael could not know if they would now attempt to kill his wife or children, so a bodyguard would have been assigned to them. As a matter of fact there is a scene where Kay attempts to leave the estate to go shopping and she is stopped by Tom. So DMC's question is a legitimate one. But even if she did have bodyguards, as Sicilian Babe has said as far as they know she would be visiting a doctor, after all she was pregnant. And that doctor in all likelyhood performed an illegal abortion! But the bodyguards wouldn't need to know that. Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29509
06/05/05 10:42 PM
06/05/05 10:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8
sicaollgeto
Associate
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Associate
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29510
06/06/05 12:40 AM
06/06/05 12:40 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098 Existential Well
svsg
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098
Existential Well
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Originally posted by DonMichaelCorleone: I wanted to ask a question about Kay's abortion which might be answered in the novel, I haven't read it so I don't know.
No, in the novel Kay does not have an abortion. It was an idea of Talia Shire, which FFC inserted in the part 2 plot. If there was a bodyguard there they would have known she was going to an abortion clinic or whatever and would have been able to tell I guess Tom at that point.
Abortion clinic? I have no idea what kind of clinics were in America in those days, but I speculate that an "abortion clinic" would not have been acceptable.
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29513
06/06/05 03:17 PM
06/06/05 03:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by olivant: ...Well, Mike killed his flesh and blood - his brother. Nothing wrong with that, right? Well, if you're going to weigh right vs. wrong in general, then of course it was as wrong of Mike to kill Fredo as it was to kill Sollozzo, McClusky, Carlo, Tessio, the Heads of the 5 Families, Moe Green, Hyman Roth and Fabrizio (to name a few). But no more or less wrong then any murder or betrayal any of those people had taken part in against the Corleone Family. However. If you're talking strictly about business and the one he was in, then the fact that Fredo was flesh and blood played no role (except for the delaying of the murder until after their mother's death) and was the RIGHT business decision....since it was the direct result of Fredo making the WRONG decision, which was to betray HIS own flesh and blood for his own gain and benefit, thereby almost causing his own brother's death. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29515
06/06/05 03:46 PM
06/06/05 03:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by afsaneh77: ... I blame her for getting married to someone whom already knew had turned into a monster. I disagree that Kay 'already knew' Michael was a monster when she married him. I think that although she certainly knew the type of business he was involved in and that his father and associates were known killers...she must've truly wanted to believe at some level that he would legitimize the business and not conduct it in the same fashion. She made herself believe it, as she made herself believe he wasn't responsible for Carlo's murder. The realization of what he was took place gradually over several years ... and culminated in that exchange in the hotel room. Kay was certainly naieve when she married Michael, chose to be naieve...and because of that did deserve everything that came her way. But I don't think she consciously knew she was becoming the wife of a monster...or that he even WAS a monster when they got married. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29517
06/06/05 04:13 PM
06/06/05 04:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by afsaneh77: ... Of course you can always argue that movie is different than the book, but that's the feeling I've had when I found out about this in the novel. The movie is different from the book. Which is why the two cannot always be intertwined. Just as Fredo is a completely different character in the film(s) than in the novel (from what I hear) ... the Michael/Kay relationship can also be considered different. And in the film, I really get the impression Kay marries Michael with the faith that he's not a monster nor on his way to becoming one. That is why in GFII the character is legitimately able to confront Michael (while dancing) about waiting 7 years for the Family to become 'legitimate'. And of course the film does not show us that visit between Kay and Mama. But there's a nice forum to discuss the novel if anyone so chooses. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29519
06/06/05 04:42 PM
06/06/05 04:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by afsaneh77: Kay went to visit Mama Corleone when she tried to hand Tom her letter for Michael. There was no way that she wouldn't know Mike has killed Sollozzo and McClusky...IMO She thought Mike would change. Big mistake! In the novel, yes I'm sure that's when the visit takes place. In the film, Kay simply asks to call for another cab and that's why Tom lets her in. For a viewer who has not read the novel, there is no reason to assume that Kay then sits down and has a nice chat with Michael's mama. Of course what you're saying makes sense logically, that how could Kay NOT realize Michael killed a police officer and that's why he's nowhere to be found and she hasn't heard from him. Except you're thinking that from the point of the audience, who already knows these things. Not being part of that world and being completely clueless as to how it all works (except for the intro she got at Connie's wedding)...Kay might just be so much in love with the boy she met in college that she's willing to just not let herself think about what he might have done to warrant his disappearing from the face of the earth. What's in the letter she tries to give Tom? Not having read the book someone might think it's an 'I love you but am not going to wait around forever it's clear your family has taken priority in your life so I'm going to go on with mine wish you the best Always, Kay' type of thing. When you haven't read the novel (as many have not) ... it's kind of fun to consider these alternate scenarios because you have no recollection of a book to corner you in. Which is why there's a very nice forum in which to discuss the novel if one so chooses. But I do agree with you about one thing, Kay thought he would change THE FAMILY when she finally did marry him. I don't think she yet had any idea as to what he was becoming, what was going on inside him. And it would be several years before she would. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29523
06/06/05 05:11 PM
06/06/05 05:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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I would like to read it someday...have said that here for years. I like the movies though and right now there's no desire to wade through the Dr. Jules/Johnny & Hollywood crap, Luca throwing babies into fire, Sonny's 'size' and Lucy's 'room'...and all the other wonderful stuff I've read about here on the BB. But when I do, I'll be sure and visit that other forum often!! Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29524
06/06/05 05:23 PM
06/06/05 05:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950
DonMichaelCorleone
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950
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Originally posted by svsg: Originally posted by DonMichaelCorleone: [b] I wanted to ask a question about Kay's abortion which might be answered in the novel, I haven't read it so I don't know.
No, in the novel Kay does not have an abortion. It was an idea of Talia Shire, which FFC inserted in the part 2 plot. If there was a bodyguard there they would have known she was going to an abortion clinic or whatever and would have been able to tell I guess Tom at that point.
Abortion clinic? I have no idea what kind of clinics were in America in those days, but I speculate that an "abortion clinic" would not have been acceptable. [/b]That brings up another thing that I was thinking. IF (I'm not sure) there weren't any kind of abortion clinics or anything at that time, then wouldn't Mike have had "his doctors" ? I can't see someone in his field going to just any doctor. Is that making sense lol So along those lines I don't see how Kay would have gone to just any obgyn, wouldn't Mike have had "influence" on the doctor in some way, making it a risk for Kay to have the abortion? Just more thoughts lol
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29525
06/06/05 05:31 PM
06/06/05 05:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by DonMichaelCorleone: [QUOTE]...IF (I'm not sure) there weren't any kind of abortion clinics or anything at that time, then wouldn't Mike have had "his doctors" ? I can't see someone in his field going to just any doctor.... As afsaneh77 pointed out...if Kay really desired an abortion she was going to get one. A woman of her means would have certainly been able to discreetly seek a Dr. who would perform one even if it were not necessarily the one she was seeing for her pregnancy. Also we're talking about a time when men did not get very involved in the course of the wife's pregnancy and since this was after all not their first child but their third...we can assume Michael, especially as consumed as he was with Business would trust that Kay would be capable of handling the 'medical' aspect of the pregnancy. God...the things some of you people pick apart can realy make a head spin !! It's a wonder you can even enjoy the movie. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Kay's abortion
#29528
06/07/05 09:47 AM
06/07/05 09:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by Sicilian Babe: OK, did anyone ever think that Tom was telling the truth and that Kay was lying? If, after all, Michael had such a tight control on her life, including her doctors, perhaps she did have a miscarriage... No. Tom WAS telling the truth, because at the time he told Michael he believed it was a miscarriage. Kay WAS lying by allowing everyone to think it was a miscarriage...until that moment in the hotel when she admitted that it was an abortion. Judging from the character, Kay did not appear to be the type of woman who would say, "It was a BOY and I had it KILLED..." if it were not true...just to alienate and hurt her husband. Remember, during that final bout it was Michael who brought up the subject of the lost baby...not Kay. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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