Anything written into TGR (including the implication that Fredo was gay) is simply a feeble attempt to capitalize on unresolved issues in GF, GFII, was written by neither Puzo nor FFC and is really not to be taken seriously.

Which is probably why very few who belong to the BB seem to care for it (including DeathByClotheshanger according to his 'review' in TGR forum).

Apple

The only thing I learned from TGR was how to waste my time and money.

Amen, brother. As I have posted elsewhere, I was able to pawn mine off at a used book place for a few bucks, which helped, and then of course there is that extra shelf space at home for something more worthy.

I don't think abortion can be classified as a 'holy' act then. It might have not been revenge but would have been a good closure. Mike would have never given up on her unless she would have done this act and/or have lied about it all along.

Neither did Kay.

And of course, she viewed the abortion as 'closure' for her marriage but it appears she did not intend to admit having it to Michael until he have her a hard time about leaving (which she should have expected). So while not actually revenge...I guess it could be viewed as playing her last hand.

See the dialogue below:

"...oh MICHAEL. MICHAEL you are blind. It wasn't a miscarriage, it was an abortion. An abortion MICHAEL. Just like our marriage is an abortion. Something that's unholy and evil. I didn't want your son MICHAEL - I wouldn't bring another one of you sons into this world. It was an abortion MICHAEL. It was a son MICHAEL, a son and I had it killed -because this must all end.

I know now that it's over now. I knew it then - there would be no way MICHAEL - no way you could ever forgive me. Not with this Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2000 years...!"

Apple

This is a deeper question than you think. While she probably chose to have the abortion for the very reasons she cited to Michael, I think she wanted to tell Michael this all along. She no longer wanted to simply be a vessel through which Michael could get himself a bunch of heirs, which was (in Michael's mind) the means by which the family's future would be secure. Instead, it turns out that the only power she had over Michael was the power to chose not to have his children -- so there was this whole power struggle going on between them, and she trumped him.
There's a great line in this colloquy where Michael alludes to this by saying there have been "things going on betweenmen and women" for all time.

Of course the abortion should be the end of things, but in GF III they seem to go all squishy on one another even though she has remarried.

All the more proof that much of GFIII was silly fabrication in order to get as much of the original cast together as possible. You are right, that abortion SHOULD have been the end of things between Michael and Kay (especially taking into account his reaction to the abortion).

But if that were left as is, there would have been little if any reason for interaction between them in GFIII. Hence the wishy-washy reconcilliation.

Apple

Yes, I totally agree. That is one part of GFIII that always bothered me. Michael was this powerful man who we see, in GFII, manipulate Anthony against Kay, and basically bans her from seeing the children. Then in GFIII, and I realize that it is years later, we see Anthony tied to Kay's apron strings, hating Michael. Then a few scenes later, they are all so chummy chummy again. While I realize that over time Anthony may have grown up to realize that his father manipulated him against Kay, and that Kay was not the monster he made her out to be, so he "changed camps" and went over to support his mother. But this should have enraged the Michael that we knew from GFII even more. Instead Kay berates him, belittles him, and launches this verbal assault againsy him, and then he caves into her demands. Next thing we know is that they are all buddy buddy again, prancing around Italy together and Michael and Kay even make love again! Sheesh! Would the Michael from GFII have ever forgiven Kay for aborting his child? I don't think so.


Don Cardi

Exactly DC. Maybe it was Connie's influence that made him such a self doubting wuss? I dont know. I am still hung up on what the hell Anthony was doing in law school at age 27, and how he became an overnight success as an opera star even though he had no classical training.

Me either, but even if he did...I cannot see them as 'chummy' as they become in parts (the parts I've seen) of GFIII.

I could even see his giving her control over their children's education, as mentioned in his letter to Anthony and Mary heard at the opening of the film. I could see her being a crucial part of the story...in terms of the struggle Anthony has with the Family and his father's past.

The rest of it...nope.

Apple

They made love again??? I never realized that! In Sicily??

I have to disagree with some of the posts here re: Kay and Michael's relationship and Kay's relationship with the children. I think that any divorced couple with children can, in time, make their peace with one another. Especially if they love their children as much as Kay and Michael love theirs. I also think that if we are to believe that Michael was truly trying to be legitimate, then what better place for the children than with Kay? If he truly wanted Anthony to take his place in the "new and improved" Family, then he would want him to make contacts in the legitimate world.

Also, in the beginning, Kay admits that she only came to the party to fight for Anthony. However, I believe that she comes to see a more vulnerable Michael after his collapse. When she accompanies the family to Sicily, I think she begins to understand the roots of his life and background.

Another point, I do believe that when children grow, they can gain an understanding of the "alienated" parent, and may even come to prefer them as part of their rebellion against the dominant parent. This very easily could've been the case with Anthony. As for Mary, she obviously is torn between her love for her two parents. To give her peace, they may well have agreed to be civil to one another.

One more point - Kay wasn't out for revenge?? There was nothing more she wanted than to hurt Michael in the only way she knew how. She wanted to anger him, hurt him, and sever all ties with him. If that's not taking revenge, I don't know what is.

Very well put Sicilian Babe. Great synopsis!


As for them making love in Sicily, I recall either reading or hearing that there was a deleted scene that shows them in the Villa in Sicily the "next Morning." I think that in the version we see in the movies, it is implied that they made love. It also may be in the script.


Don Cardi

Don't you understand? In reality (if this were real in the first place)...Kay would not have even been invited to the party. The children, of course. But not the ex-wife. She would not have had the choice to 'come to fight for Anthony'. And anyway....she could have done that in a backdrop other than the celebration going on. Which in fact would probably have made for a more believable scenario if they had to have Keaton in the movie.

Also, she would not have been invited to the family trip to Sicily. It was ALL fabrication to get a bunch of neato scenes between Pacino and Keaton. And unlike what went on in GF and GFII...almost ALL of it is unbelievable.

But then...so is Vincent and his relationship with Mary, so why should they stop there!!

No, I don't think 'revenge' toward Michael was her motivation for having the abortion. Her big speech (see my post above) makes it clear that the abortion was to stop providing heirs to the Corleone Family and get the hell out. She did not want this baby. Since until that moment in the hotel she probably did not intend to tell him about it...then the only 'revenge' would be in her own mind.

Apple

SB your points are well taken, but this is no "ordinary" divorced couple (if there is such a thing). These were two mismatched people who shared an Ivy League education and absolutely nothing else. When they married after Michael returns from Sicily, they are both marrying ghosts...ghosts of their pasts and ghosts of what each and both of them hoped that Michael's destiny would be other than what it really was.

This was a situation where an assassination attempt happened in the bedroom, where he never went legit...and where she got an abortion. Then he took the kids from her, and then gave them back... how they reconciled I will never know.

Apple, I can understand your point about Kay being invited to the NY party. However, I see no reason that she wouldn't have been in Sicily. Her son was singing at one of the most famouse opera houses in the world. Since she wanted him to be a singer in the first place, do you really think that she would've missed it??

I understand the acrimony between them. All I'm saying is that they obviously loved their children very much, both of them. Love for your child will make you do things that you never thought you would, or could, do. Perhaps over the years, their mutual love for their children forced them to establish a civil relationship. Perhaps I'm romanticizing it a bit, but I don't think that Michael and Kay's relationship in GF3 even approaches the absurdity and unreality of Vincent and Mary's. Although there was a huge old mountain of hate between them, I still find it plausible that they could have reached the place that was portrayed in the movie.

And while I see your point about Kay's abortion, Apple, I still can't believe that revenge played no part in it. If she truly did have an abortion, yes, it was to stop producing heirs to Michael's throne, but it was also a damn good way to devastate him at the same time.

Edited to add that dontomasso's post, which referred to their marriage as one of ghosts, is perhaps one of the most insightful views of Michael and Kay's relationship. Very well put!!

No, I don't think she would've missed it. However, I also don't think she would (realistically) be travelling with the Corleone Family, and most certainly would not be invited to sit in the box with Michael. Again, a woman of Kay's means would've been perfectly capable of travelling overseas to see her son (the one who was in law school until age 27 and now starring in an opera with no previous experience) perform without having to latch on to the ex and his family, the one she once hated because of the Sicilian Thing that had been going on for 2000 years and had to end and so the abortion of her third child would surely do the trick.

Ya follow?


Of course it doesn't. Who EVER implied that ANYTHING approached the absurdity of Vincent & Mary? You're comparing apples & oranges.

Of course she truly did have an abortion. But not really to 'devastate' Michael. You'll recall that when she first walked into the room to speak with him, she was quite amicable, congratulating him on prevailing in the Senate hearings. Kay had no intention of the conversation unravelling the way it did. No intention of telling him about the abortion. I'll remind you again...it was Michael who brought up the lost baby. Not Kay.

I agree !!

Apple

Do you mean that 27 year old law students (27? Was he a little slow? Maybe he took after Fredo?) with no prior voice training couldn't make an operatic debut in Palermo, cast in the lead role of a complex and challenging opera?? Pshaw!

Hmmmmmm....on second thought it's no harder to swallow than same 27 year old's baby sister falling in love with their FIRST cousin, the bastard son of their long dead uncle, who longs to inherit the Family Business from their father who eventually hands it over to him on the one condition that said bastard nephew stop seeing his daughter.

Geez...this is one heck of a family!!

Apple

ps - somebody here (domtomasso?) said Anthony was in law school until age 27. I don't know for sure am just taking it on faith that this is mentioned somewhere in the movie.

Isn't part of the answer to all of this that, in GFIII, Micheal is a bitter, self-hating old man who doesn't want Anthony and Mary to become embroiled in his way of life? In the opening voiceover bit in GFIII, he mentions that he has "entrusted their education" to Kay ... presumably, she is the "safe" choice and will raise them conventionally, keeping them away from Micheal's business and way of life. The same monologue explains why Kay was at the NY party - "perhaps you could prevail upon your mother to come to this ceremony".

Sure, it's a massive change from the Micheal of GFII, but that Micheal was in the ascendency, self-assured and self-confident. The GFIII Micheal is the old emperor in decline, King Lear. His resolve has weakened, and he realizes that although he can make his children safe ("protect them from the evils of this world") by ensuring their material wealth, he realizes that emotionally, Kay is a better carer, given his own inner turmoil and self-loathing. Or something.

OMG, for a moment I really considered if I should repost here everything I ever wrote n abortion and weaknesses of GF2-3 plot. By now, I've decided against it. Hello everyone.

Apple, I hope you know I was joking when I said that, right? RIGHT?

I did once I read your 'review'.

But...breaking from my usual shyness about sharing my opinion...had to respond regarding TGR anyway.




Apple

Anthony would have been seven when he received his first communion in Tahoe, and that was 1959. GF III is in 1979, so doing the math that makes Anthony 27 and still not through law school.


Yesterday I watched GF III for the millionth time and saw another huge continuity flaw. The letter Michael writes to invite the family to the religious ceremony is written in February 1979 (you see this in a brief shot of the actual letter after the scene showing the skyline of manhattan. This means the party is shortly after that, which is when Michael allows the oaf Anthony to go off and become an opera singer. Michael then has his stroke after the Atlantic City hit, at which Joey Zasa is still wearing a bandage on his ear, meaning the timing of that meeting was shortly after Vincent bit him. Michael is recovering from the stroke and Kay comes to visit him in the hospital and there she tells him that Anthony will be performing in Sicily "this Easter." Since Easter is in March or April, this means that Anthony got the gig in less than two months from the date he dropped out of law school.

Yes, I see your point as far as timeline goes, but who's to say that Anthony had not already begun singing several years earlier while still in law school, or that he began singing in his early 20's and started law school later on in his 20's?


Don Cardi

Because, DC when they are at the opera house there is a telegram from Douglas, Kay's extremely tolerant husband, saying that he hopes Anthony sings better in the performance than he sings (note present tense) in the shower. If the kid could not sing in the shower, it means he did not have previous training.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[QB] Because, DC when they are at the opera house there is a telegram from Douglas..."


You are right, I don't think that Copola would have wrote that in the movie unless he wanted us to know that this was a first time for Anthony.


DS

Ok, I didn't remember that scene.


Don Cardi

DC never tell anyone outside the family what you didnt remember