Did the Corleone family have a hand in the killing of JFK? They talk in the movie about how if history taught them anything it was that anyone could be killed. They talk about how it would be impossible to kill someone (forget who) and they say it would be like killing the President Of The United States and they say that if History proved anything it is that anyone can be killed. Did FFC want us to think about this? (Does anyone here understand my question? )

DS

Donald Smitty: I think the Coreleeowns killing JFK is far fetched.I do believe however they may have been the ones who beat-up Shecky Green in Las Vegas at the behest of Frank Sinatra.

Different time periods. GFII was set in 1958-59. JFK died in '63.

"The Godfather Returns" would certainly lend itself to that possibility, though.

Interesting theory!

The kennedy assassiantion took place in 1963, which was during a period not covered by any of the three films in the trilogy.

I think Michael's cooments about killing a president were meant to be prescient, altho I suppose you could draw an inference that the Corleones participated. As you obviously know, there are many who believe that organized crime had a hand in the plot.

But the only time there could have been a real hint was in GF III, which was after the fact, and I don't recall any.

Winegardner's GFR suggests a link, though, for what that's worth (nothing, IMO).

Yes you are correct Goombah and Pl my time line was wrong.

DS

It would be part of the unwritten history of the Corleones, and as someone points out there is a foreshadowing of this in GF Returns the horrid novel.

However, I agree with the idea that there is enought in the GF movies to suggest that they would have been part of the mob operation which supposedly played a role in the JFK assassination. As one conspiracy theory goes, rogue elements in the CIA teamed up with the mob to do the hit. The mob tie had something to do with the fact that JFK made a deal never to invade Cuba after the missile crisis, which meant that the mob lost its investments in Havana to the Commies. The mob also thought it had helped JFK, whose father had connections win a crucial primary in West Virginia, as well as the state of Illinois by helping fix the vote in Chicago. Then, the theory goes, JFK went squishy on Cuba, and RFK started to go after the mob, so in essence they felt betrayed.

In GF II Hyman Roth says that with the deal done in Cuba, they finally had an entire country under their thumb, and then he goes on to say with the right man and enough money they could get someone elected to be the president of the United States. There is little doubt in my mind who FFC was referring to when this scene was shot many years after the JFK assassination, and after these conspiracy theories began making the rounds.

I beg to differ about the comment that the GF didn't cover 1963. The Pentangeli/Rosato machinations mirrored the real life Profaci/Gallo Brothers machinations of the early 60s. And don't forget that Pentangeli testifying before the Senate mirrored Valachi's testimony in 1962.

In any case, Oswald did it all by himself. There was no Mafia/CIA/Rightwingers/Castroites or any other group involved in JFK's assassination.

The remark, "If history has taught us anything...", was a device of FFC and Puzo to capitalize on history by tying our consciousness of the JFK assassination to the impending assassination of Roth. But it wasn't intended to suggest that the Corleones would be involved in the JFK assassination. I think the device was to prepare us for the fact that Rocco wouldn't survive the Roth hit--just as Oswald really had no chance of getting away clean after the JFK shooting. But the JFK assassination was too far in the future for the Corleones at that point.

Ironically, JFK himself said, just two or three weeks before his own death, that anyone could kill a President if he had a high-powered rifle and wasn't worried about getting caught.

how can u be so certain?
you heard the theory that if u kill the head the tail dies?

There was no percentage in it for any of those groups. Oswald was desperately trying to make himself important. He failed to do so in the Soviet Union, at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City, and on radio and TV when he debated anti-Castro cubans in New Orleans.

Killing JFK guaranteed nothing for any conspirators except the potential liability of exposure.

I don't agree. I think the remark WAS refering to Kennedy and it was simply an anachronism. The last president assassinated before Kennedy was McKinley and that was some 60 years before Michael would have said that line.

Further to this, in the second draft of the script (pg 95) there's mention of the skimming process that the Corleone Family followed and it refers to a family courier having a flight layover at Kennedy Airport (before continuing on to Geneva with the skimmed money). The New York airport was then named Idlewild (before Kennedy was killed). Its one of the sloppy details that were apparent in Part II (despite it being an extraordinary movie).

But since that part of the second draft never made it to the final cut of the film, it didn't become a sloppy detail. I have to believe that at least some of the mistakes and hard-to-believe scenarios that appeared in earlier drafts of the script didn't get into the final cut because FFC recognized them as errors and fallacies, and excised them.

Thats certainly possible. Getting back to the quote that started this, though, I think Coppola was simply giving us a feel for the era (early to mid 60's - the Kennedy era) rather than being totally true to history. "If history has taught us anything...." - thats in the past. Mike would not have been referring to something 60 years in the past, and again its my belief he was referring to Kennedy.

I do not know much about Kennedy or JFK. SC and Turnbull, you may be right, but I always interpreted in a different way. I thought michael was referring to his killing McKcluskey at a time when it was considered impossible to kill a NY police captain. That is why (probably) he says to Tom "You surprise me".... because Tom was as much involved in planning McKluskey and Solozzo's hit.

The evnets which you describe may have been the basis for the events in GF II, but the film was set in late 1958 to early 1959. At least, that's when Castro took over.

That's really the subject for another thread. In fact, we've had a few covering the JFK assassination over the years.

But there is plenty of evidence that indicates that there was a conspiracy. I've read a number of books on the subject, and while I'm not certain exactly who was behind the assassination and what, if any, role Oswald played on the plot, I am absolutely convinced that at the very least he did not act alone.

I like to think of the 'If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anyone' comment on a less specific scale, more as a profound truth.

It always makes me think of the Roman emperors who were assassinated - who would have thought you could do that? But you could. All throughout history, prominent men of power have been wiped out despite their security precautions and heightened awareness of danger. Michael, it seems to me, might be looking at it from this point of view. After all, he's both a college boy and a soldier in the Marines, and as svsg said, he broke every rule in the book when he, as a civilian, murdered a police captain and a notorious gangster. What's more he has had first hand experience of the un-killable being killed; the assassination attempt on his father, an innocent sicilian peasant girl, the heads of the five families, etc etc.
I think FFC knew the comment would ring true for us because we had since experienced the assassinations of JFK and so many others, but I don't think this was necessarily a specific reference to one president.

A further use of this comment is, IMO, to foreshadow Michael's tragedy. Because Mike isn't just talking about Roth, Kennedy, McCluskey here. He's revealing his potential, the depths to which he will sink, in terms of the murder of Fredo. When he asks Tom if he will come along with him in 'these things he has to do', I always get a shiver thinking that he is introducing to Tom the idea of killing Fredo. Fredo didn't know, but Tom did. We see this as Tom pauses before entering the meeting, to watch Fredo with Anthony through the window. (I feel this mirrors the scene in Part I when he goes back into the house and watches through the window as Tessio is taken away.) The following scene is Michael testing Tom's loyalty in the face of the atrocious thing he is now asking him to accept.

The other part of the tragedy is the ironic use of this comment. Yes Michael, anybody can be killed. Just remember that when you're standing on the steps of the Teatro Massimo.

Looking at the dialogue in that scene and listening to it, Michael is not neccesarily making a reference to killing a President. Yes, Tom makes the analogy that killing Roth while in custody would be like killing a President, but Mike is not necessarily making a reference in his reply to the killing of a past President! Maybe by saying to Tom " You Suprise me, if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you can kill anybody, Mike could have really been saying, as an inside message to Tom, " You suprise me Tom, if the history of The Corleone family has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anybody. You suprise me, we killed a Police Captain, and the heads of the five families when everyone else thought that we were weak and that it was virtually impossible for us to do so!"


MICHAEL :That's where I want it met.


TOM :Mike that's impossible -- they'll turn him over to the Internal Revenue, customs, and half the FBI.


MICHAEL :It's not impossible. Nothing's impossible.


TOM :I'd be like trying to kill the president -- there's no way we can get to him.


MICHAEL :TOM, you know you surprise me -- if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you can kill anybody.


Don Cardi

If FFC wanted us to think about it, it would be in the historical context of the conversation taking place several years before the JFK assasination. Up to Nov. 22nd 1963 it may have been thought of as impossible (and unthinkable) to kill a President...especially one surrounded by secret service agents during motorcade, from a grassy knoll on a sunny day in Texas.

While in 1958 Tom is claiming getting close enough to Roth to kill him would be as unlikely as getting to the President, a 1970's (and beyond) audience knows that neither is impossible....if someone wants it done badly enough.

Personally, I think it's quite a clever bit of dialogue.

Apple

ps - and yes, Don Smitty I did understand your question. But I do not believe there was a hint in there that a few years later Michael Corleone would decide to eliminate JFK.

I think that's a valid viewpoint, DC--especially the part about McCluskey. At that time, Tom said it would be impossible to kill a police captain--"outcasts"--and Michael came right back at him. Perhaps the "you can kill anyone" remark was a reminder to Tom.
When I said earlier that FFC was appealing to our consciousness of the JFK assassination, I meant that he was cashing in on what we, the viewers, already knew--not what the Corleone family might have been planning down the road.

Does this mean that it was Rocco on the grassy knoll?

No...because he was already dead by then.

However, it might very well have been Neri whom we know acquired prominence by the time of GFIII.

Too true. By the way, did you ever notice that it's always referred to as "the grassy knoll". I mean, aside from JFK, how often do you actually hear the word knoll even being used?

So this must mean Oliver Stone will direct GF IV

No. Actually, Rocco survived the Roth hit, flew to Dallas, opened a strip club, and changed his name to Ruby.

Seems his kharma didn't change much, did it? Suicide killer to soon-to-be-dead killer.

I would have to agree with DC and J Cappucetti on this on. I think he was just referring to history in general and not the kennedy incident.

And about the JFK shooting, i believe there were multiple shooters while others dont, even thought it is impossible for one shooter to hit kennedy in all those different places unless he could teleport from a building to the knoll then to another building.
And also i believe that only the neck shot to kennedy was from the grassy Knoll and the fatal head shot came the drain gutter in the street bellow becuase if u watch the clip you see how his blood and brains splat up wards.

really......i heard maggie simpson did it all alone!

I always thought the line refered to the fact that they could kill anyone, I thought it talked about the McCluskey killing.
When Michael suggested killing McCluskey, Tom said "you can't kill a cop..." or something along those lines. So I think it refers to the fact that they could kill anyone. And Michael was probably refering to the McCluskey murder...

What Michael says is "if history has taught us anything its that you can kill anyone." Since the Corleones were modeled on the Roman Empire, he could have meant anyone from Julius Caeser the Gracchi brothers, and everyone else assasinated before and since then.