I would not be surprised if something happened to Dominick Cirillo, he is believed to have a poor health caused by heart problems, I guess the guards don`t do anything to save their lives.

Don`t bullshit, there will be deaths with or without gangsters.

Merry Christmas [/b][/quote]Pappo,

Don Andrew has not said that there would NO longer be any deaths without mobsters. What Don Andrew is pointing out is that everytime a mobster dies or goes to prison, that there will be LESS deaths as a result of underworld and illegal mob activities.

Don't you realize that Mob bosses, through their family businesses and underworld activities, affect the average citizen on a daily basis? Don't you realize that becasue of an order from a mob boss it is very easy for an innocent bystander or an honest person to die?

I feel that you find this hard to comprehend. Why is that?


Don Cardi

Don`t bullshit, there will be deaths with or without gangsters.

Merry Christmas [/b][/quote]Pappo,

Don Andrew has not said that there would NO longer be any deaths without mobsters. What Don Andrew is pointing out is that everytime a mobster dies or goes to prison, that there will be LESS deaths as a result of underworld and illegal mob activities.

Don't you realize that Mob bosses, through their family businesses and underworld activities, affect the average citizen on a daily basis? Don't you realize that becasue of an order from a mob boss it is very easy for an innocent bystander or an honest person to die?

I feel that you find this hard to comprehend. Why is that?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]I don`t buy innocent people could die, do you think the gangsters are nazis or terrorist? I know there could be a few gangster that could kill a few innocent people, and they don`t deserve respect, but I don`t think The Chin was like that. Generally if someone is killed by the Mafia is because he is not SO innocent, there is a cause or a "because". Well, I respect all the points of view and they are valued. But I think there are many worst enemies than Mafia, I told you above. In the past the Nazis, now a days the terrorist attackers.

I'm a little late on this one, but for my two cents....My two nephews grew up with two of Gigante's grandchildren. The boys were in sports together, so my sister got to know the Chin's daughter quite well. I met her on several occasions; a real nice, down-to-earth lady. Allegedly she was involved in "accounting" for the family business. Her husband (not Italian) had a nice job with "the Union" and so did one of the grandsons.

One story: I played golf with the Chin's son-in-law and my brother-in-law says, hey Bill, you're not having any problems with your father-in-law are you? Bill says, no, why? Brother-in-law says, we're not going to see a black limo cutting across the fairway are we? We had a good laugh.

My nephews told us that there would occasionally be mysterious looking people at the house and bodyguard-types when Mrs. Chin would visit her daughter, but they never saw the Chin. The grandsons got the car of their choice when they graduated high school.

RIP Chin

Wow, great story Mary Cas!

Don Pappo I'm trying not to be mean here but please you need to do more reading. To say that generally people killed by the mafia are not so innocent in my eyes is very wrong. People are killed for witnessing crimes and for giving information to the police- honest hard working everyday people, wrong place wrong time and they are dead.

The buisnesses that are extorted, honest people don't run them? The same buisnesses mobsters exploit and steal money from? The same buisnesses that if yhou try to defend yourself, you're dead? That's not wrong?

Don Pappo,

Let's say tht you work very hard and you save up some money. Then you open a business with your hard earned money. You work in your business day and night trying to make it a successful business. You are an honest and hard working man.

Now one day both Carlo Gambino and Vincent the Chin hear that you have opened up a business. So Don Carlo sends one of his men to you and he tells you that you need to pay him $1000 per week to continue to operate in his neighborhood. The next week The Chin sends in one of his men who tells you that you must start using XYZ garbage removal service at a cost of $500 per month. You tell the Chin's guy that you are only paying ABC company $250 per month for garbage removal. So the next week ABC does not show up to pick up your garbage and the city inspector fines you $1000 for leaving your garbage on the street. Now the Chin's guy comes back and tells you that if you don't pay XYZ garbage removal $500 a week to remove your garbage, then no other service is going to do it and you'll keep getting fined. So now you agree to pay him the $500 per week.

A year goes by and business has slowed down. But Gambino still wants his $1000 protection money, and the Chin still wants his $500 per week for garbage removal services. You tell them that you don't have the money. They say, "fuck you pay me." You pay them. The next month you don't have the money, you fall behind two months, then 3 months.

Now Joe Bonnano sends a loanshark to you. " Hey Pappo, I hear that you have fallen on some hard times and have fallen behind in your payments. We'll here's $5000 to get you back on your feet again. You'll give me $100 per week which does not come off the top of the $5000 that I just lent you, and you'll pay me the $100 until you come up with the $5000 to pay me back. But at least with the $5000 that I have just given you, you'll be able to get those other guys paid off and off your back."

So you take it out of desperation. Trying to salvage the business that who've put so much money into and have worked so hard to maintain. You have to in order to feed your family.

Now you owe Bonnano's guy $5000 and are giving him a $400 per month vig until you can come up with his $5000. Your giving Gambino $1000 and The Chin $500 per month. Your shelling out $1900 per month with a $5000 outstanding loan on top of that. Your business is really dying and these payments are draining you. You can't keep up with the payments and you tell these three guys that.

The very next week you get a beating, some broken bones, and you have no choice, if you want to live, but to sign your business over to these people.


I may have written a hypothetical situation here, but rest assured, that this has gone on for many years and still goes on to this very day.

So please, don't say that these people don't affect the average citizen, businessman, or working man.

They are blood sucking Sharks. And like a shark, they smell blood in the water and feed on the smaller fish whenever they can.


Don Cardi

That's a good example Don Cardi, that's how they really work. Of course, DPN, you are right when you say terrorists and nazis are worse. Of course, everybody here agrees on that point. But, like you can read in Don Cardi's post, the mafia is also a criminal organization and they could hurt every honerst hard-working bussinesman.

I know what you mean, but if you give info to the police, you are not innocent. So, they should resolve crime by thier own, not by a rat or a "button"(you call rat to the people like Sammy, we call them "button")

Well, you know in the past they had no choice. But, maybe I could be wrong but I don`t think so, Yakuzas have business with child pornography, THAT is so horrible. I don`t know(if you know something tell me) if Vincent Gigante did something like this, despite Cosa Nostra have business in prostitution with adult girls as far as I know.
But Yakuzas, according to Lords of the Mafia, have child pornography and they sell and buy babies. I don`t like that, do you?

So innocent people are never killed by the mafia?


Don Cardi

I would never have a business store knowing there are those kind of problems, but I also know they do their business, of course there are many things I don`t like about them, but there are still some things I do. I glorify the sense of intelligence they had, the strategic skills they had, their quotes that justify everything they do, when they say the best they could say, when they speak what the one another wants to hear and when they don`t about what they really think about. You can like them or not, you can agree or not about their cause, but you cannot deny they were clever. Do you know what I mean? And I guess everybody here likes the mafiosos at one point or another, if you didn`t you were not in gangsterbb. There must be something you like about this stuff, if not, I cannot develope it, can you explain me that?

I, like you, enjoy the stories of the mafia. I enjoy reading and learning about how someone like Lucky Luciano built a network of mafiosos across the country. I enjoy reading about them, they are interesting characters, no doubt about it. But I don't look up to them.

Vincent The Chin was a criminal, plain and simple. He made his money any way that he could, be it through drugs that kill children, shaking down and hurting businesses, investing in child pronography, making money off young teenage girls who are prostitutes, etc.

Don Pappo, with all respect, you need to wake up and stop idolizing these people. They are not people that you should look up to or try to model yourself after. They do not deserve our respect. Vincent The Chin would have had your throat slashed, had a bullet put in your head, or would have taken your money in the blink of an eye, if it would benefited him financially.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the stories of these people, enjoying doing research about them, and having an interest in their history. But you need to learn to draw the line when it comes to liking to learn things about the mob, and looking up to them as heros.


Don Cardi

Vincent The Chin was a criminal, plain and simple. He made his money any way that he could, be it through drugs that kill children, shaking down and hurting businesses, investing in child pronography, making money off young teenage girls who are prostitutes, etc.

Don Pappo, with all respect, you need to wake up and stop idolizing these people. They are not people that you should look up to or try to model yourself after. They do not deserve our respect. Vincent The Chin would have had your throat slashed, had a bullet put in your head, or would have taken your money in the blink of an eye, if it would benefited him financially.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the stories of these people, enjoying doing research about them, and having an interest in their history. But you need to learn to draw the line when it comes to liking to learn things about the mob, and looking up to them as heros.


Don Cardi [/QB][/quote]How could you enjoy these stories if you think in the another way around? I consider it as a kind of contradition, I could never enjoy the Yakuzas stories and now The Chin, I didn`t know he was in child pornography, what a shame...the only thing I could like about him is how he pretended to be crazy. Well, he was crazy at some point. By the way, I don`t try to model myself after, but I still idolize how they tought strategicly despite what they did. Is wrong to like the strategic stuff?

I know what you mean, but if you give info to the police, you are not innocent. So, they should resolve crime by thier own, not by a rat or a "button"(you call rat to the people like Sammy, we call them "button") [/b][/quote]No Don Pappo I am talking about innocent bystanders on their way home from work who see a crime commited. The police ask questions about what happen and they tell them. And they are killed for it.

Don Pappo I suggest reading ANY mafia book that has transcripts of recording devices. It is a wonder some of these guys could even tie their own shoes in the morning.

Don Cardi already gave an explanation, but I will add mine. While I enjoy learning and reading about Cosa Nostra, en while I enjoy watching movies in whichi criminals have the main role (GF, Donnie Brasco, ...) I would never, ever like or respect these guys.
They are greedy bastards, who don't ever think about the welfare of society/people. They only thing they care about is their own ass, and their wallet.
Like DMC and DC, I suggest you read more about the Maffia, also the Sicilian one. Then you will realize they would kill everyone if it's an advantage for themselves, or when they would make money from it.

Like Turnbull always says: "Those guys would sell their mothers kidneys if they would make any money from it"

Don Pappo, why are you brining terrorists and Nazis into this? We are not talking about them. We know they have commited horrors, but they are irrelevant to this topic, we are talking about the Mafia. The Mafia are ruthless cold blooded thugs.

I also enjoy reading and watching films about these guys, because it is a very interesting subject. This does not mean I respect or aspire to be one, EVER.

Brilliant story MC.

Don Cardi, Don Michael Corleone, Don Andrew and Enzo. I never wanted anyone to think the same way I do, what`s more, never ever do that, if I say it`s white, you say it`s black. I am the kind of person who doesn`t like to think like the most cuantity of people or majority. I can say it`s white and you it`s black and we can be still friends and that`s fine. It doesn`t mother how much I read about Mafia stuff since now on, I will never change my mind because I have strongest reasons to think the same. You don`t need to be mafioso to make bad things. Politicians and the goverments all over the world do it everyday, the police, the army and nobody says a word, because they are supposed to be "backed" by the law, and there are many "hard working man" who don`t steal and kill but they can still sell their own mothers to do bad things, you can meet bad people everyday even though they don`t kill or steal, but they can bother you anyway and worry about themself, nobody here can deny this.Paul Castellano said the law is a convenience for a few people and an inconvenience for others. Don Andrew, why I bring the nazis and terrorist into it even though we are talking about Mafia? Because I need to explain you something, there are fans of them all over the world now-a-days. There are neo-nazis and fans of Bin Laden(even here in my country, and I don`t share it). In my country there are fans of Che Guevara too, and I don`t share it either. what I mean is, anyone can idolize whoever he wants to idolize. Like I said above, Don Cardi, with all respect, we can have different points of view and we can be still friends, I never wanted anyone to think like me, but I think I have the right to think what I think about. I would like to have a link info about The Chin involved in child porn, I believe you, but I would like to read it anyway.
Like I said before, I like the strategic stuff, is it worng?
I guess I should have a quote "people just see what they want to see".
Don Andrew must think if I could think about having Jerry Shargel and Bruce Cutler as law teachers.
Well, people that`s it. Peace and happy new year.

PD: you must think I am naive, if I am naive because of the way I think, well I AM NAIVE and I am proud of it. I would shout it out loud(like the Kiss song "Shout it out loud")

The difference is, everyone admits Nazi and terroists and pedophiles are bad people. You don't seem to admit maffiosi are bad people.

About policemen/politicians/...: if they are doing something illegal, then they must be punished Period.

If those policemen/politicians/...just make a mistake, then so be it. Their intentions are good, and that can't be said about maffiosi.

They just are criminals, and they know it themselves, they wanted this life. Maybe the Yakuza is more bad because they have childporn, that doesn't make the maffiosi less criminal.
You don't have to accept my points of view, and I don't have to accept yours. But nevertheless, the Cosa Nostra is a criminal organisation, and I can't even understand a little bit why you idolize them.

The books you read about them, don't they say what crimes the maffia commits?

Don`t you know politician are corrupt people? Don`t you know the police performs authority harrasment just because they have a gun? About the politician, there are many crime they commit but we will never know how and who did it. You cannot talk about good intentions, if you wanna know what I mean check the Argentinian history between 1976 and 1983. And I told you I like strategic stuff, I don`t idolize them, or maybe yes but at one point. There are poeple who idolize worse people like I told you before, and there are many people for exaple who loves Jim Morrison, of course he was a singer and not a killer, but I think he doesn`t deserve respect(I have many reasons, but this is not the right topic to talk about it).By the way, I think we are wasting time, becuase I won`t change my mind and I have no intention to change yours, but we are still frieds anyway and we should talk about The Chin in this post, not about we think about.

Jim Morrison is IRRELEVANT to this. :rolleyes:

And I respect him more than ANY mafiosi because he never killed anyone. :rolleyes:

Let me pose this question to you. Do you think mafiosi are good people?

In Argentina maybe, but not in normal democracies. Of course there are corrupt politicians, also in my country. But if I had to believe they were ALL corrupt, then I would stop having faith in democracy. And I don't want that.

But another thing: Let's say that terrorists, nazi's, pedophiles, politicians, police agents, Geoff, and even Jim Morrison are all very bad people, who should have no respect. Does that make maffiosi any better? Are they good people just because others are maybe worse?

He MAY have not killed people but he was a bad example for the people, and as you have already said, the reasons I hate Morrison and The Doors are irrelevante because I cannot explain in this post, but I`d rather John Gotti or The Chin one millon of times over Jim Morrison. But let`s quit this conversation because this is not the right topic and post. We are wasting our time.

In Argentina maybe, but not in normal democracies. Of course there are corrupt politicians, also in my country. But if I had to believe they were ALL corrupt, then I would stop having faith in democracy. And I don't want that.

But another thing: Let's say that terrorists, nazi's, pedophiles, politicians, police agents, Geoff, and even Jim Morrison are all very bad people, who should have no respect. Does that make maffiosi any better? Are they good people just because others are maybe worse? [/b][/quote]Enzo, corruption is everywhere, democracy or not. And of course some men were better than others.But we should not talk about it anymore, we won`t arrive anywhere with this.

He MAY have not killed people but he was a bad example for the people, and as you have already said, the reasons I hate Morrison and The Doors are irrelevante because I cannot explain in this post, but I`d rather John Gotti or The Chin one millon of times over Jim Morrison. But let`s quit this conversation because this is not the right topic and post. We are wasting our time. [/b][/quote]So John Gotti and "The Chin" are NOT bad 'examples'??? We are NOT wasting our time. Stop acting like a politician and ANSWER MY PREVIOUS QUESTION.

Bringing up a musician and his band is IRRELEVANT to the topic. You don't like their music, fine. But it doesn't mean they are WORSE than mafiosi.

Whatever you are smoking, pass it around.

Two last questions, Don Pappo:

Do you think that maffiosi in general are good people, or bad people?

Do you consider them criminals?

And can you give an answer without mentionting politicians, policemen, Jim Morrison, or whoever...
I just want 2 straight answers on these 2 questions. Then we'll stop the discussion.

You have no idea, Jim Morrison did some things really bad besides his music, but as you have already said, this is not the right, topic. I don`t consider Gotti or The Chin as good examples, but Morrison doesn`t deserve respcet at all, and I know why. At least not more than the people we are talking about.

I am not smoking anything, remember drugs are against the rules!