The news is out that Ole Blue eyes was indeed "connected." Apparently he was carrying millions of dollars around and almost got caught by customs agents. If it happened once it happened more than once, you can bet on it.

I read the news. My God, I wonder, can't they just leave him rest in peace?

It's been a known fact for many years! Don't know if you are familiar with the whole JFK Presidential Election and the Frank Sinatra connection to it, but that in itself showed Sinatra's connections to the mob. Old news. And if he was connected, so what! What's the big deal that this story keeps on popping up every couple of years? He's still the Chairman Of The Board, no matter who he was connected with!

I just despise it when the press makes these "exclusive" :rolleyes: controversial reports about people who are no longer around to defend themselves!


Don Cardi

Oh yes I know it was old news, and the whole role played in the JFK election, administration and maybe even the assassination is well explored. The source of this "new" information is none other than Jerry Lewis, who I guess was a wanna be rat pack member (but Dean Martin would never have allowed it) so I guess we should consider the source

It's been a known fact for many years! Don't know if you are familiar with the whole JFK Presidential Election and the Frank Sinatra connection to it, but that in itself showed Sinatra's connections to the mob. [/b][/quote]Wasn't that something with the link JFK-Sinatra-Giancana....??? Or was it not one person but several?

I watched a history channel thing about J.Edgar hoover and his 'files' on stars and suchlike. He had a file on Sinatra which he showed to the kennedys and they distanced themselves from Sinatra because of this at that point. Well, a visit to Sinatras place had been arranged by the kennedys and Sinatra had, had, a new helicopter pad built and had much work done in honour of them coming. After they called off the visit Sinatra went into a rage and attacked the new helicopter pad with a sledgehammer
The kennedys went and stayed with Bing Crosby instead

thats exactly what happens in the godfather returns...

No way....your kidding me right????

nope

OK right, I didnt know it was historically correct like that..I'll have to read the book see how they work it into the story, thanks

Well niether Frank Sinatra or the Kennedy family are involved but the similar event happens to two characters.

I overheard a conversation about this today at Starbucks... the guy in front of me in line was telling his friend, "I wonder if his popularity with his more wholesome fans will go down." Uh... Can you say ridiculous??

Don Cardi, you're so right. I mean most of Frank Sinatra's file has been public for many years anyway. There have been stories about his mob ties forever! And every few years, like you said DC, this thing resurfaces as if it's something new. :rolleyes:

And it doesn't change anything.
It's not like his popularity was based on his virtue and honest dealings... He had the greatest voice, amazing charisma, good acting, and gorgeous eyes! A confirmation to old rumors doesn't change any of those things, so I don't think it's really that big a deal.

Yes, the Kennedy's did distance themselves from Sinatra, but only after USING him in going to Giancana to have Giancana put pressure on his "union people" to endorse and vote for JFK. Joe Kennedy knew that if the Kennedy's could get the union vote, especially in certain states, then the Presidency would be a lock for his boy John. So Sinatra, on behalf of Joe Kennedy, went to Giancana and asked that Giancana do this favor for him. Giancana obliged and pulled the strings within the unions that were under his control and had them support JFK in the election. After JFK won, Father Joe made sure that John and Bobby distanced themselves from Sinatra, and eventually they cut him off totally. To make matters worse the Kennedys never reciprocated to Giancana, through Sinatra, for what he had done to help them and this made it bad for Sinatra with Giancana. We all know that eventually brother Bobby went on a hunt for the unions and the mob, a hunt against the same people that he and his family needed and used to help JFK get elected President. Giancana was furious, and it has been written that at one point a contract on Sinatra was considered by the mob, and when they went to Giancana for approval, Giancana's decided that he loved Sinatra's voice and music too much, so he spared Sinatra's life. I don't really know how true that is, but it has been shown in a movie, and has been written in several different books. But the point that I am trying to make is that the press continually hounds the memory of Sinatra by writing these mob connected stories, but for some strange reason the same press does NOT have the b*lls to write about how the Kennedy's got to where they wanted to be, from Father Joe's bootlegging days to their dealings with the mob in getting John in the oval office to Teddy's cover up with that young girl in her so called accidental death :rolleyes: car accident/drowning!


Don Cardi

There have been any number of books and articles written about everything you mention about the Kennedys.

Way more, I would guess, than what has been written about Sinatra.

It's pretty commom knowledge that the Chappaquidick incident is largely what prevented Ted Kennedy from becoming president.

And I'm not sure what you mean by calling the incident a "so called accident".

Yes, Kennedy attempted to cover it up, but to imply that it was anything but an accident to begin with......

Finally someone mentions the name Giancana...(refering to a post from me in this topic before)

Are you being serious here Plaw? That family has been full of scandals and coverups for as long as they've existed! Yet there is a faction in this country that continually tries to paint a rosey picture of this clan. I've always been bothered by the sheer hypocricy that has been displayed by that family! That holier than thou attitude! That "do as we say, not as we do" attitude! John Jr. was one of the few Kennedys' that ever showed an ounce of decency and class, and that was because his mother gave him the correct upbringing. I also happen to like Robert Jr. as he seems to be a sincere man who stands by his convictions and I respect him for that. But you'll never be able to convince me that what happened with that girl, who was with Teddy, was merely an accident! :rolleyes:


Don Cardi

Yes, the Kennedy's did distance themselves from Sinatra, but only after USING him in going to Giancana to have Giancana put pressure on his "union people" to endorse and vote for JFK............
Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Thanks for filling in the story Don Cardi very interesting. I didnt know people had suspicions about that Teddy Kennedy/drowning thing not being an accident tho. Do you mean him leaving her for dead was no accident or the actual accident was no accident Jeesh I'm confusing myself now Thanks

Sorry, I guess that Plaw was confused by the same thing. To clarify what I've gotten from stories that have been told about that incident, IMHO his leaving her for dead was no accident.


Don Cardi

Ah.....understood. I was confused.

However.....He has said that he made several attempts to dive down and rescue her after the car went off the bridge, but was unsuccessful.

And since he was a strong swimmer, as witnessed by the fact that he was able to swim to shore while still, apparently, in a semi-state of shock, I have no reason to not believe him on that point.

That said, though, once he reached shore he waited several hours to report the accident, during which time he attempted to concoct a cover-up story that involved having his cousin, Joseph Garghan (sp?), claiming to be the driver.

And that I cannot forgive.
As far as all of that other stuff goes.....

First let me say that although I was only eleven years old at the time of his election, I was politically aware enough to prefer JFK over Nixon.

And I would agree that because of his youth, popularity, and untimely death, there was a rather "rosey" picture painted of him and his presidency in the years immediately following his assassination.

But I think it's fair to say that as the years have gone by the gloves have come off to a great extent, and, as I said earlier, there have been a great many books and articles that have been extremely critical of him, his familiy, and his administration, scandals and coverups included.

There will always be a "faction" that supports him, just as there is and always will be a faction in support of Nixon and his scandals and coverups, and Clinton and his scandals and coverups, and the list goes on .....

Although I was not old enough to remember JFK during his presidency, I do respect him and from what I've read about him I've concluded that he was a decent man. If you go back and read what I wrote about the Kennedys', I do not really say anything negative about JFK himself. I never considered JFK a bad Don, but Bobby was NOT a wartime consigliere! Rest his soul. It was his father, his brother Bobby and his brother Teddy that I actually have the beefs with. Bobby was a scumbag. Probably the son most like his father. Bobby and Joe USED Sinatra and then threw him away like a piece of garbage! Personally I've always concluded that Joseph Sr. really had political aspirations for Joe Jr., but because of his demise, Sr. was crushed! But Sr. wanted to fulfill his dream so he then threw the next best thing in his eyes, John, into the political arena and would do everything to make sure that his son would get to the White House.

As for the "factions" that support the various former Presidents, yes, you are right, the list DOES go on and on, and will always continue to do so!


Don Cardi

But back on topic...

I think that this evidence of Sinatra's involvement in the mob, only downplays his personality. I mean, for the longest time, he was suspected of being connected, but that gave him a sense of mystery and charisma to him. Did he ever kill anyone? Was he still doing jobs for the Mafia? Did he ever meet Al Capone? Absurd questions, yes, but not so absurd to the ignorant public, especially some years ago.

But, the proof that Sinatra was a "bagman", and other incites to Sinatra and his relation to La Cosa Nostra, does two things: erase the mysticism of Sinatra and his mysterious connections, and also proves that Sinatra probably didn't kill anyone, that he had very little to do with the Mafia while he was famous, and that, no, he never met Al Capone.

Yes, getting back to the topic ;
As I said in another post : "Old News."


Don Cardi

Has anyone else read that biography of Sinatra by Kitty Kelly? I know shes notorious for writng about warts and all, but wow, that book on Sinatra was fascinating, unbelievable, I actually think his mom was worse than him

Off topic:- I intend to read Kitty Kellys biography of Nancy Reagan some time soon if I can ever find it

FH

One of the enduring myths of the JFK assassination is that Giancana raised money for JFK and helped him carry Illinois in 1960, and expected favors in return. When RFK, as JFK's Attorney General, took off after the Mafia, Giancana was outraged, and "ordered" JFK's assassination.
I don't think so. Giancana had no reason--none at all--to expect anything from the Kennedy brothers. RFK was chief counsel to the Senate Subcommittee on Labor Racketeerin and JFK was a member of the subcommittee when Giancana was called to testify around 1957. RFK humiliated Giancana:

Mr.KENNEDY: Would you tell us anything about any of your operations or will you just giggle every time I ask you a question?
Mr.GIANCANA: I decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.
MR.KENNEDY: I thought only little girls giggled, Mr. Giancana.

Does that exchange suggest that Giancana would be willing to raise money and exert influence for the Kennedys, or to expect favors from them? RFK also attacked Jimmy Hoffa, Giancana's close ally, at those hearings, which led the Teamsters to support Nixon in 1960.

JFK didn't dump Sinatra because Hoover showed him proof of Sinatra's Mob connections. He dumped Sinatra after Hoover showed RFK proof that Judith Exner had been Giancana's mistress. Sinatra had introduced JFK and Exner. JFK liked Sinatra and admired his lifestyle. He probably knew that Sinatra associated with gangsters because JFK was an avid consumer of Hollywood gossip, which he accumulated by befriending show-biz types through his brother in law, Peter Lawford. But he figured out right away that it'd be far, far too dangerous for him to maintain a relationship that connected him with Giancana through Exner with Hoover holding that information as a weapon over him. That's why he dumped Sinatra.

Ahhh Turnbull, you are definately one of my most admired Mob Historians. But with all due RESPECT towards you, I have to disagree with you on part of your statement. I do believe, for many different reasons, and some from personal knowledge that was handed down to me, that Giancana did put the word out to the Unions to support and vote for JFK. While I do agree that Giancana did not raise money for the Presidential race, and did not do this as a personal favor for the Kennedys', I am almost certain that Giancana did it more as a favor to Sinatra, and sent word to his Unions that they were to support JFK. If memory serves me correctly, JFK needed two key states to win that election, ( I could be wrong ), which I know one was Illinois, and I think that the other was West Virginia. I think that it was Sinatra who convinced Sam that by helping JFK win the election, they would have a personal "in" because of Sinatra's so called relationship with the Kennedys. That is why when Bobby eventually went after Giancana, Hoffa and the Teamsters, Giancana held Sinatra personally responsible, but gave him a pass. I do believe, and this is pure speculation on my part, that Giancana's working with the CIA in regards to getting Castro, somehow ties into the eventual killing of JFK. But that part is just pure speculation on my part.

Ok, so now this is the second time that we don't agree on something! (I still say that the old man singing at Connie's wedding was Nazorine the Bakers father! )


Don Cardi

thats a good en DC

DC, I always respect your opinions, even though you weren't at Nazorine's christening and thererore didn't get a good look at his father.
JFK needed West Virginia in the Democratic primary, not the general election. He won WVA by outspending his fellow Democrat, Hubert Humphrey, and by dispatching his supporter, FDR Jr., to spread the lie that Humphrey had been a "draft-dodger" in WWII.
JFK needed three close-call states to win the 1960 Presidential election: Illinois, Connecticut and Texas. Richard Daley, the all-powerful mayor of Chicago, delivered Illinois through the time-tested tactic of turning out voters "early and often." Nixon lead by a big margin early in the downstate results, but after 10 p.m., the upstate (i.e., Chicago) results put JFK in the lead by 5k votes. Certainly union votes were among them, but Daley, not Giancana, turned out the union votes.
As I posted earlier: RFK had declared war on Giancana and Hoffa before the 1960 election, when his brother was a senator. The difference afterward was that his appointment as Attorney General gave him the wherewithal to put Hoffa in prison.
It's true that the Mob cooperated with the CIA in some of the harebrained schemes to whack Castro after the Bay of Pigs. It's also true that RFK headed up that effort, called "Operation Mongoose." But there's no evidence that RFK knew that working-level CIA operatives were sounding out their Mob contacts. Mob guys were anxious to cooperate not because they loved the Kennedys or were patriots, but because the plot gave them a chance to restore their holdings in Havana casinos and brothels.

You thought that I wasn't at Nazorine's Christening because YOU weren't invited!

Well, of course I cannot debate the facts that you provided above because I was not around for that election. You obviously lived through the election so therefore you would know better than I. I always respect your knowledge, and your expertise on these historical matters. Next time we meet, remind me to tell you a story that was passed down to me from a former high ranking official in the Teamsters Union.

Turnbull, I am always glad and appreciative when you educate me in things pertaining to these matters. And I always admire your way of disagreeing with someone without EVER offending them! You are a true gentleman!


Don Cardi

Yes, DC, I was the Kennedy/Johnson campaign manager for Brownsville, Brooklyn in the 1960 election. JFK carried the neighborhood by a big margin. He was very grateful to me, and asked me to name my reward. I told him I wanted a shot at Judith Exner. Instead, he gave me the url for this website... :rolleyes:

That's not a bad trade-off!

A URL, though... what a remarkable amount of foresight for a guy with such bad luck. :p
(Too soon? :rolleyes: )