Actually, feel free to go fuck your male buddy in the bum. We don't care. At least have the common courtesy to wear protection. We just don't think you should be legally recognized in the sacred institution of marriage, that's all.

Second of all, I'm not really understanding your point regarding "who is allowed to become an American." I think you're implying the recent controversy with illegal immigrants. Boohoo. Come into the country legally, get a visa, apply for citizenship.

Finally, as far as what you can say, listen to, or read, try China. The U.S. still allows more personal liberties with regards to free speech - you can criticize the President, you can protest against the war, you can read anti-American books. Try that in Shui-Ban's country. See what you get.

Cheers,
Double-J

Actually, feel free to go fuck your male buddy in the bum. We don't care. At least have the common courtesy to wear protection. We just don't think you should be legally recognized in the sacred institution of marriage, that's all.

Second of all, I'm not really understanding your point regarding "who is allowed to become an American." I think you're implying the recent controversy with illegal immigrants. Boohoo. Come into the country legally, get a visa, apply for citizenship.

Finally, as far as what you can say, listen to, or read, try China. The U.S. still allows more personal liberties with regards to free speech - you can criticize the President, you can protest against the war, you can read anti-American books. Try that in Shui-Ban's country. See what you get.

Cheers,
Double-J [/b][/quote]Is marriage really such a sacred institution when divorce is still allowed?

Besides man, you ever been to Vegas or Atlantic City? You telling me a fucking drive-thru chapel or an Elvis church is sacred?

Marriage is just an institution that has been there for most of human societal history, along with law/order, "government", and so on. Thing is, is it sacred to you Double J because of religious reasons, or because its traditional? What about polygamy, or polyandry(several men tied to a woman)? Are you gonna fight the Mormons in Utah(though most don't actually follow polygamy anymore, of course there are still many hold-outs)

As for China....well ya, of course America is better than China. Do we have a new Master of the Obvious?

Thing is, America is a great place...but it can be greater. A nice person can be nicer. I've lost weight, but I could lose more.

Besides DJ, you remind me of a friend of mine. I once attacked I think Michael Mann's ALI as a nicely-shot, if so-so, picture. What did my friend say?

"So? Its still great compared to PEARL HARBOR"

PEARL HARBOR was a horrible movie, but ALI is still a decent/nothing spectacular film on its own. Comparisons are nice, but they can't be the only defense.

In a way DJ, when America had serious segregation against blacks, what was the defense of many when this was brought up in the 1930s and 1940s? "We're better than the Nazis or Mussolini, or those Reds"

Think about it DJ, but don't respond with a lame-ass wise-ass remark, or posting some stupid pic.

I would, but then I'm afraid the Knights of Columbus might come knocking on my door telling me I'd make a great candidate for the priesthood.

And who allows divorce? Certainly it is not considered kosher (pardon the pun) in Christianity or Judaism. The closest thing would be an annulment, which would be the Catholic way of saying "it never happened."

But nonetheless, the institution, traditionally, is one of sacred and everlasting vows. Just because today's society lacks the moral fiber or fortitude to entertain "'til death do us part" certainly shouldn't detract from an oath before God.

No, but again, the idea of marriage as a holy union that has been based on traditional principals. Just because you can get one with a Happy Meal doesn't make it correct (though why you'd want to swap genes with Ronald McDonald is beyond me).

True, most civilized societies have had a variety of religious rituals (though law and order certainly can be debated).

However, that being said, I think that in the case of Western traditions, it is not simply one particular facet of the culture, but an important moment that is/should be meaningful and spiritual.

Both.

What about polygamy? Probably shouldn't be legally recognized either (last time I checked, it wasn't).

No, but we certainly have a bunch of cretins who act like they are standing in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square the way they talk about how their rights to freedom of speech, what they can read, etc. has been restricted in America.

Maybe if we would have less people defending terrorists, dealing crack, killing babies, etc...(the list is infinite)

Well, since many people at the time were indifferent to the Nazi's (Joseph P. Kennedy comes to mind), one has to wonder what the hell you are talking about.

And the Bolshevik Revolution, scary shit, but not really scary until Joe McCarthy.

But anyways, what was the defense?


I can't help it if nonsensical or vacuous posts beget responses like O RLY. As Captain Planet would say: "The power is yours!"

I would, but then I'm afraid the Knights of Columbus might come knocking on my door telling me I'd make a great candidate for the priesthood. [/b][/quote]KoC kicks ass. Seriously. I hope to join them someday. I don't see what is wrong with people giving money to disabled kids and other charities and supporting Catholicism.

But anyways, I don't think you'd be a candidate for priesthood, since you'd be banging your "buddy" and not your altar boy.

"I have here in my hand a list of two hundred and five people that are complete wankers,"
Double-J

DJ, In part, I actually see myself agreeing with some of what you posted (gasp!). I agree that marriage is a sacred institution and that the rampant rate of divorce is contributing to the downfall of this country. Marriage vows should be honored. They are exactly that - a vow - and, although the better or worse part is tough at times, they need to be taken more seriously.

However, I have no problem with homosexuals being given the right to a CIVIL union. Maybe it's not marriage, maybe it's a "commitment ceremony". But I do believe that if a couple agrees to be monogamous, to be truly committed to one another, why shouldn't they be able to share the benefits that any other couple would? Benefits such as health and life insurance, being recognized as next of kin, etc.? I know that a heterosexual couple that doesn't marry can't enjoy those benefits, but they CHOOSE not to marry. It is forbidden to homosexual couples and that's a big difference.

If you have a religious marriage ceremony and Vow before God to stay together "until death do you part or whatever", that's one thing.

But if two people who are not religious get married in a civil ceremony and view the marriage as a contract with no other implications, there's not reason why the contract should not be disolved - like any other - with the consent of both parties.

For various reasons, some people should absolutely not remain married and it's completely unfair to expect them to in the name of "sacredness".

Plaw, that would depend. I am not familiar with the vows exchanged in a civil ceremony. Are they the same Until Death sort? If they are, then that's that. Of course there are circumstances, such as spousal abuse, and that union should be dissolved. But considering that some folks want to divorce because of the way the other person hangs the toilet paper, then that's just stupid.

IMHO, marriage is hard work. It's not easy. I think that too many people opt for divorce when they feel that the fairy tale is over. Well, guess what?? It never was one. That's for story books. I don't personally believe that people should stay in marriages that are harmful, just for the sake of the institution, but I do believe that society's acceptance of divorce has led to way too many of them. People opt out of marriages when things get tough because they're convinced that something better is out there. And do you know who is suffering? Our children.

Get this through your head - there is nothing better out there. The same cutie that you're so hot for right now will age and become everyday and ho-hum, just like your current spouse. After cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, and possibly holding an additional job outside the home, there will be days when your wife doesn't look like the woman you married. After a tough day at work and a horrendous commute, your husband doesn't resemble that hot young stud you fell in love with. GET OVER IT!! That's reality. And too many people go for the easy divorce because they didn't think that reality and marriage would ever cross paths.

But that's just me...

As far as gay marriage is concerned, if people are against it that's fine, but they better damn sure not be a smoker. If two men or two women wish to marry, that's their decision, it doesn't hurt the rest of us, so why should we care and tell them what they can and can't do if they aren't hurting anyone else? Smoking is legal, yet a person who smokes can cause harm to others who are against smoking as a result of second hand smoke.

Gay marriage may or may not be a sin, I certainly don't have enough knowledge about religion to know the answer to that question, but I do know that passing judgement on others is most definately a sin.

Regarding divorce, I do agree with the majority of your post, SB. I think people should try harder to make marriage work and divorce is often the first option, rather than the last. However, I don't think we can generalize marriages or divorces, just like it's wrong to generalize people. Some marriages are destined to last forever, some marriages simply will never work out. Again, it's two adults, so they should be allowed to make their own decisions. The bad thing about divorce is there are often children involved who are often deeply affected as a result of that decision. As a teacher, I can tell you stories from both sides of the coin, so I really don't know if it is more harmful to children who have divorced parents or they're better off not having to listen to mommy and daddy fight every night. Again, it's a case by case basis. Sometimes a child could be harmed further by watching mom and dad struggle to hopelessly work it out.

If you believe in God, then it's not up to you to decide what is morally right and morally wrong for other people. It's up to each person to decide what is right and wrong for them, then God gets the final say. Not the church, not the government, nor any member of this board.

Actually, feel free to go fuck your male buddy in the bum. We don't care. At least have the common courtesy to wear protection. We just don't think you should be legally recognized in the sacred institution of marriage, that's all.

Second of all, I'm not really understanding your point regarding "who is allowed to become an American." I think you're implying the recent controversy with illegal immigrants. Boohoo. Come into the country legally, get a visa, apply for citizenship.

Finally, as far as what you can say, listen to, or read, try China. The U.S. still allows more personal liberties with regards to free speech - you can criticize the President, you can protest against the war, you can read anti-American books. Try that in Shui-Ban's country. See what you get.

Cheers,
Double-J [/b][/quote]As far as illigeal immigrants i do feel they should they should get a visa and come over legally. the problem is that the system is so screwed up. I have a friend who is from India. He came to America for schooling and has a Ph D in engineering and a law degree. He has been here for 8 years and is still not a citizen. He is still on a work visa. that is messed up.

As for having more freedom than people in China, yes we do and I want to keep it that way. I don't want more just preserve what we have.

As for gay marriage, I just think it is not the governments job to govern over the sanctity of marriage. I also don't think it should be an issue for debate when there are many, many other more important things going on. What is the problem? If it is the tax breaks and insurance then it is a business decision not preservation of marriage.

At least smoking isn't contagious, though, unlike homosexuality.

I would compare the statistics of second hand smoking and second hand homosexuality.

[read. [/qb][/QUOTE]Actually, feel free to go fuck your male buddy in the bum. We don't care. At least have the common courtesy to wear protection. We just don't think you should be legally recognized in the sacred institution of marriage, that's all.


Well you see here is the problem. Marriage IS a sacred institution. It is a religious thing, and therefore it is something the state cannot control. What should happen is we can do the same thing they do in the free countries in Europe....you go down to the city hall and get a license and get hitched. This should be allowed for gays and straights.

Now if someone wanted to get married in a church, and that church had the belief that marriage is only between a man and a woman, then the church would have the right to disallow such "marriages."

Perhaps he owes for tuition? I don't know. However, I do agree that the legal immigration system does need to be improved to prevent cases like you've mentioned from happening.

And, with regards to the marriage issue - are we ready as a nation to take the next step towards Sodom and Gomorrah?

SSDD...*yawn*