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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1596
09/21/02 10:38 AM
09/21/02 10:38 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,316
east coast
Anthony Lombardi
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,316
east coast
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I agree 100% with yah, TIS! 100%!  We never got to know Appolonia, so tell me people... How is she so annoying and whiney and a bitch? Not that all of you said that, but it's what yah make it out to be.  I mean, she had a few lines... You didn't get to know her, as you did Kay, to see her personality! And, TIS... I agree with you again. Appolonia was honking the horn because Mike was going to teach her to drive. As I said in an earlier post... Women in Italy didn't have as much of a right as women in America did. This was all knew to her, I mean... A women driving in all. She was excited. She was honking the horn! Big deal! She didn't hear the convo Mike was having. If she did, I'm SURE she'd stop honking! 
the power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. george bernard shaw
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1597
09/21/02 10:40 AM
09/21/02 10:40 AM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,924
United States
Paul Pisano
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,924
United States
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Hi, From what I got to know of Apollonia I liked her. Paul
http://kingfish4400.webstore.com/blu-ray/dvd/vhs/more. 1449 + titles. PRICE DROP ON ALL TITLES + 30 percent off all titles, free shipping, one bus day handling time, and guest checkout available- membership not required to make a purchase. 52 SALES to date. verified seller. BATMAN52 IS THE CODE THAT MUST BE ENTERED AT CHECKOUT TO GET THE DISCOUNT.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1599
09/21/02 12:06 PM
09/21/02 12:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 23
Partinico
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 23
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Feel compelled to weigh in here. The reason that Michael decided to move on from his relationship with Kay was because he was no longer the same man that she fell in love with. If you remember at the wedding, he says, "That's my family. It's not me." Well, after killing Sollozzo and McCluskey, it IS him. He makes the assumption that Kay, being from a different world, would no longer want to be with him.
When he falls in love with Appollonia, it is a completely different kind of love. He loved Kay for her intelligence and independence, as well as his physical attraction to her (which was partially based on her looking "different"). His relationship with Appollonia was based her looks, her simpleness and her understanding of the man he had become and the life he had embraced.
When he gets back together with Kay, he explains to her that, if they do marry, their relationship will be changed. It will no longer be a partnership, as it used to be. He can't confide in her as he once did.
She accepts those rules, thinking that their life will go back to "normal" when the Corleone Family goes legitimate. When that doesn't happen as Michael promised, her anger and resentment build and their marriage is destroyed.
Appollonia would never have expected to be a partner. For the man that Michael became, she may have made a better wife in that she would have been much more complacent in that role of obedient wife.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1600
09/21/02 12:10 PM
09/21/02 12:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 745
Mena, Arkansas
Scarlett
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 745
Mena, Arkansas
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Originally posted by Jan:
What was so great about Apollonia? I know that most of you guys think that she was so beautiful, but what else was there about her? Let's be real, she barely said anything in the movie or in the book, her role was so brief. The book even says that she was just a village girl, barely literate, and with no knowledge of the world. So, what was so great about her? I don't think it was maybe her beauty (or lack of it as some of the women think) that maybe attracted Michael to her, (although you have to read the book to get the WHOLE story of their relationship) it was also her youth, innocence and the virginal aura around her, plus I that she was totally UNTOUCHABLE until after their marriage. The old style Sicilian courtship, although a fast one it was, he had with her was quite different from what he had with Kay. I think he did love Apollonia more than Kay but I think he did love Kay also, but not with quite the same intensity. Question is, did she love him too or just settle for him in the end? Also, would she have liked knowing she was his 2nd choice?
"Life is so beautiful."
"Even the King of Italy didn't dare to meddle with the relationship of a husband and wife."
Don Vito Corleone
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1601
09/21/02 12:59 PM
09/21/02 12:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 393
USA
PastaPunk
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 393
USA
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Originally posted by BronxKing: My personal preference is a woman with some color, like Apollonia. Kay was pale as a ghost, and probably had her blue veins showing through her skin. No offense intended to very fair skinned women. "It's not business, it's just personal."  Gottcha. Oops! I never meant my words to be a serious attack against either Kay or Apollonia. Sometimes my humor is a bit weird and not read right, and that's my fault. My point was they both were potentially good wives with each their own quirks. True Apollonia couldn't hear the conversation, but certainly she'd understand that it was important, right? You're all right when you say she would have NEVER had an abortion. I'll let it be known that, believe it or not, I've always liked Apollonia better than Kay.
I'm a girl, and I just want to have fun.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1602
09/21/02 04:09 PM
09/21/02 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 745
Mena, Arkansas
Scarlett
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 745
Mena, Arkansas
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Michael being Michael I am really surprised by his restraint in that he didn't have Kay killed, wife or no wife, after she told him she'd had an abortion and not a miscarriage. Heck, I mean he had his own brother killed! I don't doubt that Sonny would have killed his wife if she'd done that to him! I mean, what else besides having an affair could she have done to have really gotten to him, except maybe turned "Rat".
"Life is so beautiful."
"Even the King of Italy didn't dare to meddle with the relationship of a husband and wife."
Don Vito Corleone
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1603
09/21/02 06:12 PM
09/21/02 06:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
deathkiss
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
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For the record, Appolonia had to have heard the conversation because the car door was open and Don Tomansino was leaning against it for support. Even if she could not hear a conversation taking place, it does not take much gray mater to realize that if you see two people standing next to one another, chance are they are talking to one another.
I don't know if I just find Appolonia annoying or the Sicilan sequences anoying. I think they are the weakest scenes in the entire movie. The movie burst right along with hits, murder plots, a**kicking. Then we see the draggging shots of Sicily. It seems to break to Sicily every time we see a powerful sequence (Sonny's death, Carlos a**kicking etc )
Sicilly was so boring for me because Michael did not hold the leading character at that time. It was the badass Sonny that my eyes was drawn to. We can argue that Sonny may not be a good Don, but he was very exciting to watch. Sonny explodes on the screen! We don't know what he is gonna to do or say. I could care less about Michael's 'pee-pee', Sicilan martial rituals (even thought a lot of the girls were boom-booming the GIs), or Appolonia. I was more interested in the gangland wars and the Don.
Send the car for me too, mama
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1604
09/21/02 06:28 PM
09/21/02 06:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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I suppose it's all a matter of taste and opinion as to which parts of the movie was most appealing.  I loved the whole movie, but in my opinion, I thought the Sicilian portion was a beautiful addition to the movie. Doesn't make me right or wrong, just my opinion. Also, even tho we never knew Appolonia that well, I just can't believe she'd be so cold as to ignore the news Michael was given, had she heard it or suspected it was news of serious nature. Again my opinion for what it's worth. Like I said there is no right or wrong in these opinion questions. TIS
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1608
09/21/02 07:12 PM
09/21/02 07:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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Deathkiss, I didn't recognize you. My how you have changed.  I know that face, but refresh my memory??? Who is it? TIS
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1610
09/22/02 02:46 PM
09/22/02 02:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
pacino princess
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
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Hey! What the hells goin on ova here!?  Everybody's jumpin all over Appolonia! So what if she honked the damn horn while Mike was talking. In life there are crucial moments when things like that happen. You could be laughing and joking and your husband could be on the phone hearing of his father's death. SHE DIDN'T KNOW. I'm sure she stopped honking when she heard what happened. She was a young girl who was MARRIED. She didn't know exactly how she was supposed to act thats why Michael was so patient with her. Plus, we didn't see Mike And Appol's relationship with each other. We as an audience didn't get to see any of that. And yeah, boys will be boys, just as men will be men. If Mike thought he wasn't goin back to New York, of course he 's gonna wanna bang the thunderbolt. She was beautiful, she was young, she was a symbol of new beginnings and she made him happy. And yeah, she was "previously un-banged". What more can I say.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1611
09/22/02 02:47 PM
09/22/02 02:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
pacino princess
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
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Originally posted by TonyD:
(my apologies for the length of this post)
As far as Kay ... I think certainly Mike would have been in the wrong if he had hurt her with the knowlege that he had gotten married to Appolonia. But if I'm not mistaken, weren't Kay and Michael just boyfriend and girlfriend? (mi dispiace ... I don't recall).
Consider too that Michael didn't know when he would be able to come back; that he had in fact, told Kay to go back to her parents... and during his time in Sicily I don't think they had any communication at all.
I think it's kinda presumptuous anytime we think we know whether two people should love each other and get married (in real life as well as represented in the movies). We aren't them and we aren't in their heads or their cultures. Culturally, around the world people's idea of marriage is very different than our own and they believe just as strongly as we do that they are doing the right thing.
Sicilians, and Italians on the mainland (especially Italians north of Calabria) consider themselves pretty separate cultures; in language, in food, and in customs (btw: this used to be a sensitive issue in my family with my older relatives who were both Calabrese and Sicilian). While there are a predominance of similarities, there are quite a few contrasts (as least in degree) that tend to set them apart.
Sicily has been influenced by Arabic culture and was in fact ruled by the Moors about 1000 years ago. Much of Sicily's modern culture retains those influences. All cultures are a mish-mash of other cultures that influenced them. For Sicily this included traditions of the Roman Empire, Greek influences, North African Moorish influences, as well as feudal and Norman influence.
Old Roman law is where having a best man and maid-of-honor come from in Italy. Some other old customs in Sicily and Southern Italy are things like the procession from the bride's parents' home to the church; throwing either paper confetti ... or candy ... this is why those candy covered almonds are often called 'confetti' ... this is the candy that Appolonia was going around the wedding party and giving to each person.
To understand the circumstances that Mike was getting married in, it's important to know something about Sicilian culture.
In marriage, Muslims, and Sicilians influenced by that culture, sometimes took more than one wife. They also tended to have arranged marriages; this is the basis for Michael to have been so forward in arranging the marriage directly with Appolonia's father.
The chaperoned walk that Mike and Appolonia took was another old aspect of Sicilian courtship. At another point, Appolonia automatically looks to an older female family member before she opens Michaels gift. All this is very old practice. Interaction between the couple took place *within* the family; something that we aren't used to today.
Sicilians also often took wives who were as young as 15 to 17 years old (and this was often a girl who had been 'spoken for' since the age of 13 or 14); marrying very young is something that is quite common in many cultures especially in areas with high infant mortality and harsh living conditions.
(As an aside: as recently as the early 70's, in some southern states in the US, girls could marry at 15 and at *13* with parental consent (I believe this was Mississippi). It's both obnoxiously pious, and 'PC' when we impose our prudish sexual 'morality' on other cultures we know nothing about (he says as he backs away from the steep slope ... gravel cascading down before him).
In the old days in Sicily; because arranged marriages didn't require a formal courtship or engagement between the couple, marriages might occur very quickly after the decision was made. Michael's quick move to marriage would not be uncommon. This was still occurring right up thru the 1940's.
I should point out, however, there is a very different custom in Sicily and Southern Italy as well; since about the turn of the last century; of specifically having *very* long, drawn-out "engagements" sometimes lasting 5 or 7 years. This practice, which is really just calling a 'boyfriend/girlfriend' relationship an 'engagement', took hold to provide some sort of 'dignity' to the increasing tendency to have pre-marital sex. Another reason some claim is an economic one, giving the man a chance to get some "wealth" together (Hmmmmm, so some people claim, anyway.)
Marriage practices like the ones I've noted found their way into Sicilian culture and exist in Sicilian culture even right up to modern times-- nearly a thousand years after direct Moorish or Muslim influence had ended.
Somebody did their homework on the marriage of Mike and Appolonia in the movie. I thought they did a spectacular job.
As far as the marriage being inappropriate; I do not judge Mike so harshly. Hey Tony!..you are damn good
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1612
09/22/02 03:08 PM
09/22/02 03:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 387
Ireland
goddaughter
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 387
Ireland
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I dont think Appolonia was "all that" in the film but I would have liked to have gotten to know her character a little better....maybe then I would have felt at least a little bad when she got blown to bits.
In the novel....does Michael tell Kay about his Marriage to Appolonia when he gets back from Sicily?
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis.
"We're all gonna be three little Fonzies - and what was Fonzie?!", "Cool?", "Correct-a-mundo!"
- Jules and Yolanda, Pulp Fiction
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1613
09/22/02 05:24 PM
09/22/02 05:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
deathkiss
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
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Pacinoprincess, you act as though the character Appolonia should be untouched and voided of adverse critisms, as if she was a saint or something. Sorry, but I did not find anything special about her. In fact, I thought her lady in waiting looked just as good as Appolonia. Appolonia was certianly not ugly, she was pretty just like Sonny's twins or even her lady in waiting.
Appolonia was somewhat attractive but an annoying character. I think if someone who only had two bodyguards around him 24/7, he would be attracted to the first young female that he sees. Heck! I think Michael would have been attracted to Whoopi Goldberg if she was there picking grapes.
Send the car for me too, mama
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1614
09/22/02 05:25 PM
09/22/02 05:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
deathkiss
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
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Pacinoprincess, you act as though the character Appolonia should be untouched and voided of adverse critisms, as if she was a saint or something. Sorry, but I did not find anything special about her. In fact, I thought her lady in waiting looked just as good as Appolonia. Appolonia was certianly not ugly, she was pretty just like Sonny's twins or even her lady in waiting.
Appolonia was somewhat attractive but an annoying character. I think if someone who only had two bodyguards around him 24/7, he would be attracted to the first young female that he sees. Heck! I think Michael would have been attracted to Whoopi Goldberg if she was there picking grapes.
Send the car for me too, mama
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1616
09/22/02 05:32 PM
09/22/02 05:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
pacino princess
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,078
DC
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Originally posted by deathkiss:
Pacinoprincess, you act as though the character Appolonia should be untouched and voided of adverse critisms, as if she was a saint or something. Sorry, but I did not find anything special about her. In fact, I thought her lady in waiting looked just as good as Appolonia. Appolonia was certianly not ugly, she was pretty just like Sonny's twins or even her lady in waiting.
Appolonia was somewhat attractive but an annoying character. I think if someone who only had two bodyguards around him 24/7, he would be attracted to the first young female that he sees. Heck! I think Michael would have been attracted to Whoopi Goldberg if she was there picking grapes. No, i do not think she should be voided of criticisms, because after all, hopefully we remember, She's a ficticious character. But the point that I was trying to make was that Michael married her in Sicily because she was the way she was.She was a little girl, not an adult with adult mannerisms. She was in the grape field with little girls. But you are entitled to your opinion no matter what and I respect everyone here. And I hope Whoopi Goldberg was not in Sicily picking grapes because it would have been frightening.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1617
09/22/02 05:36 PM
09/22/02 05:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,924
United States
Paul Pisano
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,924
United States
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Originally posted by deathkiss: Originally posted by The Italian Stallionette: [b]Deathkiss, I didn't recognize you. My how you have changed. I know that face, but refresh my memory??? Who is it? TIS Hi, It is Phoebe Cates. Paul
http://kingfish4400.webstore.com/blu-ray/dvd/vhs/more. 1449 + titles. PRICE DROP ON ALL TITLES + 30 percent off all titles, free shipping, one bus day handling time, and guest checkout available- membership not required to make a purchase. 52 SALES to date. verified seller. BATMAN52 IS THE CODE THAT MUST BE ENTERED AT CHECKOUT TO GET THE DISCOUNT.
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1618
09/22/02 05:46 PM
09/22/02 05:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
deathkiss
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,304
Long Island, NY
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...Pacinoprincess, you know that young girls, like appolonia should know not to interupt in grown folks conversations, especially with the the Don present. I can accept that explanation if Appolonia was 6 or 7, but 16! It was more than an interuption, she wanted the conversation to end so she can continue driving! and Hunking the horn because she was annoyed. Mike should have gotten in her ass right then! The boring Sicilian scenes would have been more tolorable.
Send the car for me too, mama
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1620
09/22/02 06:02 PM
09/22/02 06:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,223
York, PA
Luca Brasi
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,223
York, PA
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Originally posted by The Italian Stallionette: I am surprised at all the negativity shown toward Appollonia, especially it seems by the women!  In that time in Italy, things were done very differently as far as marriage goes. Somtimes courtships were very short and sometimes marriages were even arranged. It was not uncommon to marry very young either.
I do think Michael loved Appolonia. We never really got to know her personality as the audience, but I don't think she was unlikeable at all. I think she would have been a loving, faithful wife to Michael, and accepted him under any circumstances (right or wrong).
Kay, however, was also a good wife. More liberated, and willing to stand up to Michael, to an extent, and she too loved him. Neither were bad wives.
However, I still maintain Appollonia would have been a better match for Michael, yes, because she was Italian, and even tho very young at the time of her marriage, knew the customs and beliefs, knew when to keep quiet (be it right or wrong); and never, ever would have had an abortion, which is what Kay had to to get out of her marriage to Michael. Appollonia was more like mama, I am sure. I think that's what Michael needed/wanted in a woman; someone to be there, be faithful and loving, and yes, never interfere in the "family business".
BTW, when Appolonia was honking the horn for Michael to teach her to drive, she couldn't hear the conversation in which Michael was told that Sonny was killed.
TIS
Kudos TIS!! you hit the nail right on the head with that post! Not ALL guys think with the head of their dick! It's nice to hear it from another woman's point of view.
"He who fights with monsters should look at it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
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Re: Kay and Apollonia
#1623
09/22/02 08:32 PM
09/22/02 08:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,044
Upstate, New York
CamillusDon
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,044
Upstate, New York
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Originally posted by Luca Brasi:
[/qb] Kudos TIS!! you hit the nail right on the head with that post! Not ALL guys think with the head of their dick! It's nice to hear it from another woman's point of view.[/QB][/QUOTE] Oh come on... Not all BUT enough of them do tho....at one time or another. Thats Mans biggest weakness..... ...oh yea and eating, what do you women say...the way to a mans heart is thru....
"Well, old friend, are you ready to do me this service?"
"I believe in America. America has made my fortune."
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![[Linked Image]](http://archive.dstc.edu.au/AU/staff/andry/images/crown.gif)
PastaPunk said:
