Dear Dr. Who Fixed Lucy:

Patrick has been a member here for a while now. I would make a guess that when he used the BB to vent using the language he did...he knew darn well he'd get some degree of feedback from his, let's say 'older' listmates - especially those who are themselves parents of teenagers.

The main purpose of his post was, I agree...to vent at his mother's actions. But don't think for a moment that he didn't either expect or desire some of the reaction he got.

Regards
AppleOnYa

ps - What's a Bible??

Actually there are many places in the world where this comparison would be all too real.

So we've concluded:



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Do you believe his dad was right doing what he did just because he is an adult?

It seems many missed the point of the thread (maybe I have too because I've only read the edited version). Kids will drink, it's what they do, it's what Pat does, it's what you've done and it's what I've done. Pat's pissed off about what his mothers done. I don't know whether it's right or wrong but I understand the frustration. A level of trust, privacy and understanding has been broken. A mother and son are on two completely seperate pages. I'm not into drama, I'm into harmony and the easy life (usually easier with a beer ). Be political - tell your mum you understand what she's done and why she's done it. Tell her you don't like to buy beer illigally, say you don't do it often but you like a little drink with mates now and then - and that doing it at a mates house keeps you off the streets. I don't know your mum but hopefully she'll appreciate it and allow you more freedoms.

That's what I was thinking. The thought of wasted alcohol kills me and my family. My dad used to tell me off if I left any!

Pat, I'll buy your beer for you. But no bloody alcopops. When you get to college you don't want to be the pussy that can't take your drink do you?

Pat, I'm glad that cooler heads prevailed. You're a smart young man, and that's a tough thing to be in this society, where young people seem to revere sex, drugs and rock n roll over all. Look, I'm not forgetting the mistakes of my youth, and I'm not suggesting that we were all saints. However, as I pointed out in my previous post, we have perhaps learned from our mistakes and want to pass on that wisdom to you.

I am glad to hear you love your mom. I'm sure she's doing her best to make sure that you don't waste any of the talents that you have, especially given that you'll be leaving for college soon. That means that you'll have many freedoms, and without the proper level of maturity, those freedoms can be deadly to a young man.

I was sad that you kept emphasizing how difficult it was to get the alcohol, rather than saying that you realize what your mom did was the right parental thing in the long run. However, you're mother isn't supposed to be your friend. She's supposed to make the unpopular decisions because that's what being a parent is all about. If my daughter screams "I hate you! You're ruining my life!" then I can pretty much guarantee that I did the right thing as a parent. Does that mean it doesn't hurt? Does that mean that I don't wish I could just say "Do whatever you want if it means you'll smile instead of scowl,"? I wish I could. It takes great resolve to make a decision that you know will piss off your son or daughter, and to stick to it no matter how mad they get at you, but it's the best thing in the long run, and that's what a parent has to keep in mind.

Try to remember that when you think about it.

And, SVSG and Double J, you should be totally ashamed of what you posted. There is nothing funny or even remotely amusing about teen suicide, and your posts completely and totally disgusted me. I know we're not supposed to name-call here, but if I get banned it will be worth it. By posting that, you were both jackasses.

SB, I apologise. I come from a background where "most" men consider their mother to be the dearest person on earth, over their father, wife, brother or sister. The only exception being their own kids. So when I hear a person saying all this about his mother, I think it is cruel. And along the same lines, a mother won't mind getting into trouble to protect her son (unlike what you said).I know my mother has done quite a bit of sacrifices for me and my sister, though neither of us were junkies, alcoholics or in general troublesome. And I would consider my mother and father to be the dearest persons for me, much more than any girlfriend or wife. I think you would not understand it coming from a different culture. It is okay.
And regarding you calling me a jackass, it doesn't bother me. I thought I had to give an explanation for having made a unfriendly remark to patrick. But name calling me reveals something about you. So I am glad some of our members got a chance to see your ugly side.

I'm not sure what's the best reaction to a teenager; claiming to commit suicide if he/she doesn't get his/her way. What a parent should do? What a friend should do? What a board member should do? And these are serious questions that I'm trying to find their answers.

Honestly what's certain is that if you don't care for you life, not many people out there do.

SVSG, Call it ugly, call it whatever you want. I don't think that making jokes encouraging a teenager (or anyone else for that matter) to commit suicide is remotely amusing.

As for reverence for parents, I think that you have no clue what sort of culture I come from. The idea of disappointing my parents was my #1 reason for NOT getting into trouble. I adored my father, who sadly passed almost 12 years ago. And my mother, approaching 80 now, lives with me and I treasure the fact that my children get to learn from her wisdom and experience.

And where in my post did I say that parents shouldn't be willing to make sacrifices for their children? As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I DID say, that it's a parent's job to make decisions that are unpopular with children, if that's what it takes for their children to be guided on the correct path. Maybe YOU didn't understand ME.

Afs, Patrick NEVER mentioned suicide. He said that he was angry and hateful toward his mother. It was SVSG and Double J who suggested that if he didn't like her actions, he should suck on car exhaust or go hang himself, even providing helpful illustrations of a noose.

Pat

You should be on your knees thanking God that you have a mother who loves you enough to be looking after you like that. So what if she threw that stuff away, you don't need that stuff this stage in your life anyways so be grateful. My mother died 29 years ago when I was just 13 years old. It was very hard growing up without her. I would have given anything for her to help me get ready for the prom or see me graduate high school or being on the front row of the church watching me get married or having her playing with her grandchildren.

SB,OK, maybe you are right, I probably misunderstood. You said that his mother was right in throwing away the alcohol becasue in case of police action, the parents will get arrested. Though it is an absolutely valid common sense decision, I thought that a mother would be more concerned with his health than the threat of getting arrested. The mothers I know sometimes make irrational decisions if they feel what they are doing ensures welfare for their children. I think it is cultural - some are pragmatic and common sense oriented, while others are not. I probably belong to the latter, while most western cultres belong to the former category. I don't mean any offense, bt merely pointing out what I feel. If you are interested, I can send you by PM, two examples of posts made long time back on these boards that made me realise about these differences. I would rather not post them here, becasue it will unncessarily drag some people into this debate.
And my suggestion (made in poor taste) was more of a joke rather than a serious suggestion to commit suicide. When some one says "hard shit", "harder shit" and such, I do imagine someone wanting stronger and stronger intoxications. So I joked about inhaling really "strong" gases that will take you to a whole new world, in the language of junkies. And writing such crap about one's mother, probably I should have made my suggestion seriously :rolleyes:

SVSG, Thank you for clarifying your position. The reason I mentioned that his mother could be arrested was to illustrate to Pat that he was putting his family in jeopardy, which is truly bad, not as the only reason she should throw it away. Sometimes when you write things, they can be misunderstood, so I'm glad that we both had a chance to make ourselves understood.

Mig, I can appreciate how hard it must've been for you to grow up without your mother. I'm sure that you cherish her memory, though, even though that's hardly enough.

Oh come on! Pat's mother isn't dead - she's very much alive and pouring his liquor down the sink - I think that's a cheap shot Mignon.

Everyone has a different story. I'm deeply sorry for you - for anyone - who loses a parent at an early age. I have had friends in similar situations; it is one of the worst fates to befall anyone.

But it does not give you the right to preach lyrical about respect for parents. If your own mother had lived, heaven knows, you might well have argued and fallen out a lot, and even had cause to curse her as Pat curses his own mother.

The reality of family life is that you can't live with it when it's there, and miss is sorely when it's not. It might seem like a trivial teenage hangup but Pat shouldn't be made to feel abnormal or wicked for venting his feeling just because your mother sadly died before her time.

I believe the point of mentioning that was to point out to Pat that he might be grateful he HAS a mother to pour his liquor down the sink, and look out for his well being in various other ways. And shame on you for calling it a 'cheap shot'.

Actually, the very fact that Pat posted his 'vent' gives anyone here the right to preach lyrical, cheer or support him as they please, for whatever reason they please.

Yes, he should be.

Apple

He should feel "abnormal or wicked" because of his little rant? Because someone else's mother died young? :rolleyes: You Bible Belt crusaders should get a grip. I swear, visiting this forum is sometimes like taking a trip back in time to Victorian England.

He should be made to feel abnormal and wicked because of the way he spoke of his mother in his initial post. Which I've noticed is greatly edited since he's 'cooled down'. I'm sure that has nothing to do with any of the responses.

The fact of other BB-members not having thier mothers is pretty much a side issue. But a relevant one, just the same.

Apple

Well I don't know how you do things in New Jersey, but over here we don't pigeonhole troubled teenagers as "abnormal and wicked" because of their emotional outbursts.

Presumably in your little village Patrick would be tried by a Council of Elders for breaking the 5th commandment and stoned by the peasantfolk?

Can I invite you into the 21st century where me meet adolescent parental contretempts with mature empathy rather than holy condemnation?

I wasn't specifically talking about Pat. He didn't talk about suicide, but as a threat he mentioned doing drugs or some other "shit". You know, my sister in law is a principal and she said the other day when she told a teenager not to wear a certain type of clothing to school, that student told her if she can't wear that she is going to commit suicide.

This type of threats, if they don't get their way is what's bogging me. I mean, I want to know how to deal with it if I was in that situation. Just a thought.

Dr,
Pat posted something about how he hated his mother and found her to be a hypocrite, all because she took away something illegal and potentially harmful. By doing so, as Apple pointed out, that means that he left himself open to the opinions of all posters.

And Mignon tried to put perspective on it by pointing out how much she missed her mother's influence in her teen years, and that Pat should feel appreciative rather than resentful.

You, on the other hand, took a very sweet woman's post and well-meaning words of advice, and tried to turn it into something nasty. I believe that you are the one who requires the removal of the stick from his buttocks.

You may think it is "very sweet" to call a troubled teen "abnormal and wicked", SB. I would suggest you are another do-gooder who hugs their Bible more than they read it.

Afs, I think that depends on the person. There are some people out there who have no intention of even thinking of suicide, but use it as the ultimate manipulation. In others, it could be considered a real cry for help. I think that it would depend on the personality of the person threatening suicide. Perhaps the student said it to your sister because it's a threat that's worked under other circumstances.

Well, they're your words, Dr. Nobody called Patrick 'abnormal' or 'wicked' before you introduced those terms to the discussion. I happened to feel that they were quite appropriate. And I can't help but notice that you enjoy repeating them every time you post.

Seems that you're the one doing the pigeonholing around here. Also seems like you're running out of useful contributions to this thread. Also seems like you're being backed into a wall.

And actually, the majority of responses to Pat's post have been mature. Each time YOU post, it becomes more clear why you have failed to see that.

You appear to be in even worse shape than Patrick, for whom as I've previously stated...there is still hope.

Good luck,
Apple

Alrighty then....

Shooting fish in a barrel... would be an easier exercise than arguing with you it seems. You cannot keep track of what you said two posts ago.

Actually, Dr., if you review Mignon's post below, she never used the words abnormal or wicked. She obviously spoke from her heart, and tried to put things in perspective for him.

Let me ask you, how many children have you raised, that you can speak on authority about the best course of action for a teen who has broken the law? Who has put his and his family's future at risk? Mignon has raised a lovely, intelligent and poised daughter. I would suggest that she certainly knows what she is talking about.

Actually, SB, if you look at the quote in bold that I acutally quoted then you will see that that was the phrase AppleOnYa actually used

And if you look at the quotes in bold below, this was YOUR reaction to Mignon's original post.

And then when I defended Mignon, you said the following:

And, as I said, Mignon never used those words.

As someone once said, it's like shooting fish in a barrel....

Apple said "He should be made to feel abnormal and wicked because of the way he spoke of his mother in his initial post." Those words orignated from that poster, whether the phrase was adopted from me or not, they were hapily adopted!

SB, I get the impression you're one of the "As a parent..." brigade. You think your opinion on all manner of worldly issues is automatically more valid because you can preface it with "As a parent, I think...". Newsflash: being a parent does not promote you to sage status. So curb your arrogance and pay attention to the detail of this debate which you and Apple - no doubt another "As a parent" firebrand - are rapidly losing in terms of logic at least.

I fail to see how I am losing any debate; I am merely pointing out the facts. I never even referred to one of Apple's posts. I referred to Mignon's, which YOU countered by referring to one of Apple's, so who is missing logic here? Are you comparing "Apples" and "Mignons" perhaps?

As for my being on an "As a parent..." rant, I said that MIGNON has raised a lovely daughter, and that she may have the authority to speak. So, once again Dr., I fail to see YOUR logic.

Apple, Mignon. Tomatoes, tomatoes.

I'm off to bed.

Newsflash: Yes it does, when some teenager introduces a thread in which their own parent is spewed at with such venum for doing something that was in the long run in the best interest of their child.

You appear to have a knack for introducing appropriate terminology to this discussion. I would ask you to curb your own arrogance, except that I can see it's being used only out of desperation.

You're losing big time...and I think you know it, too. Which is probably why you're escaping to beddy-by.

Sweet Dreams,
Apple