How about we give the embryo a social security number? Many people give proper funeral to their monkeys and dogs, so why not give them SSNs as well?

Yeah, some men can hope to have off-springs with this law because otherwise they wouldn't have the chance.

Personally I refuse to be knocked up against my will by a rapist and carry that child for nine months putting my career on hold, only to give him/her up for adoption.

Let's be fair here.

You could probably continue to work for the first eight and a half months or so, maybe right up until the happy and blessed day itself, couldn't you?

And then get back to work within a week or two, right?

Besides, this has nothing to do with what you want personally, or what's best for your life.

What a selfish attitude, to put yourself first, ahead of the unwanted pregnancy because of a rape.

Why, I'm surprised at you.

Let's see. You puke all the time at the beginning, then you hardly can move and have to be near a bathroom all the time. No, sir the kind of work I do has to be stopped during the whole time.

I'm hoping that was a joke, right?

Edit: Now I see your edited message. Sorry that I'm slow to get jokes.

Well, you'll just have to find yourself another job, then, and throw all of your education and training and possible future contibutions you might make to society out the window, won't you?

I mean, after all, the pregnancy might result in the next Einstein or somebody.

that is more likely

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I'm Einstein myself. Why not taking care of something that has been taken 29 years to get there only because I might give birth to another Hitler? Not a chance here.

I do get pregnant with someone I love, when I think it is right, period.

that is more likely [/b][/quote]True enough.

So how did your last pregnancy work out, svsg?

I had an abortion after I came to know that the child won't be as smart as einstein. Sad story

Well, according to svsg, the odds are about 78%.

But I don't think you can fairly argue a case for when life begins based on the mathematical probabilty of what will happen.

That's like saying "Let's put someone on trial for murder because they beat someone senseless and the docors say that they have only a 25% chance of recovery."

No, let's wait and see if the victim dies first before we decide to try their attacker for murder.

Same thing here.

Let's wait for it to be born and be a baby or, at the very least, be viable outside of the womb, before we start calling it a baby.

Until then, AFAIC, it's still part of the woman's body, very much physically attached to the woman's body, and totally dependent on the woman's body for even a chance to ever become a baby.

I'm all for limits on how far along a woman should be before sacrificing her right to an abortion, although I'm not exactly sure at what point that limit should apply, and I'm sure that cases will arise that deserve to be exceptions to the rule.

But just because you say that it's a baby the moment the woman is impregnated, that doesn't necessarily make it a baby.

Arguing about "when life begins" does not "trivialize" or "rationalize" the subject.

That's really the crux of the whole argument, because I'm certain that there is no one who favors pro-choice that also favors killing babies.

But IMO, a fetus is not a human being, a person, or even a baby.

It's a completely unique organism, a significant step in between sperm (there's live stuff in there, isn't there?) and the unfertilized egg, and a baby.

And aborting a fetus is not the same as "murdering" or "slaughtering" a baby.

I believe that this came up earlier today, Snake, in another thread:

Just because you believe something to be so does not make it so.

I absolutely respect your opinion 100% as well as your right to have it and express it, of course, but that's all that it is: your opinion.

There are people who don't quite see it exactly the way that you do.

Paul,

I'm not the kind that usually flatters other posters and I try to do my own fight. But I just had the urge to say that it is very heart warming that a man tries to understand some of women's stance on this issue this meticulously and be willing to give them the choice and space and trust them with what they might choose. That must be the hardest thing to do, keeping distance from the testosterone driven mentality of ordinary men to have control over women.

I also wanted to say this is very hot in a man. I'm willing to put my career on hold to have you child Plaw, nice gene pool you've got there.

My plan to get BB girls worked:


My view is easily explained: I'm a liberated metrosexual man.

That was very sweet of you to say, BTW.

Wanna have some IM sex?

Yeah, why not!

OK, but I ain't no bandleader.

Good, cause I'm neither a cheerleader nor two cocktail waitresses.

Not calling "it" a baby and saying "it" is just another part of a woman's body is just another way to either deny one's self the guilt, or again, rationalize/justify killing a baby.

I also respect your right to express your opinion 100%, etc. But do you not know that I know there are those who disagree with me? Likewise, do you know there are those who disagree with you? What's that to do with anything? I get the distinct feeling that it's "okay to express an opinion" as long as it's in line with the left way of thinking. The right states anything and we're accused of being judgmental, self-righteous, etc., etc., etc. And please, plaw, don't tell me the opinion of a man who's pro-life doesn't amount to a hill of beans, or at least for those of us who have gone through it. I may not have gone through what my girlfriend back then did physically, but I have emotionally, and for decades now.

To placate you, let me say in my opinion that the murder of babies is rationalized like it is because mankind knows deep down it is just plain wrong. There are exceptions, such as those with seared consciences who care about nothing except their own appetites. Otherwise, "fetus," "tissue," etc., are just other terms we've adopted in this idiot age of PC semantics to make ourselves feel better about it.

Have you never wondered why so many pro-abortion/pro-choice (which is the same thing anyway) people get all hot and bothered at pro-lifers who protest by holding up pictures of aborted babies? If "it" is just "tissue," then why do they get all up-in-arms? Because abortion is wrong, and they bloody well know it is.

As far as the odds concerning "what" will be birthed after 9 months, I wasn't referring to natural miscarriages. My point was that "it" is a human being the moment the sperm hits the egg and will, in all likelihood, grow to at least childhood if nature is allowed to take its course. Moreover, you can't convince anyone but a clueless simpleton that out of the thousands of babies slain daily, most of them would not have grown into a healthy human being.

Let's see...three Corleone brothers.....Mike and the cheerleaders, Fredo and the cocktail waitresses, and Sonny and, um.....Sonny and, er......Sonny........

Hmm.....Can't think of anything pertaining to Sonny..... )

You're an insomniac, too, huh? Thanks for the "break" post, plaw. I needed it (almost as badly as I need sleep)!

How about you be Sonny for a little while when we are close to the bedroom door?!

Apparently we don't have the place to ourselves anymore. Hey Snake! I still distinguish between the fetus and a baby. Unless you could have the SS to give them SSNs. :p

No, maybe WMDs. :p

That would't help your cause now, would it?! :p

First of all, as far as the "it's okay to express an opinion as long as it's in line with the left way of thinking" goes, that ain't me.

Very little, if anything, that we talk about here is black or white to me.

Actually, the only thing I can think of off-hand that is black or white among the many is the idea that homosexuality is "wrong."

There's nothing that can be "wrong" (maybe there's an exception or two, I guess) with doing something that doesn't interfere with my rights or the rights of others.

Everything else around here - Bush, Iraq, abortion, the eavesdropping thing, the "War Against Terror", what is or isn't separation of church and state, the right to bear arms, discrimination for whatever the reason against whoever - you name it - has some area of gray to me.

Also, if you want to say that sometimes my thinking is self-righteous at times, go right ahead because it probably is.

But on the abortion question - whether abortion is right or wrong, for moral reasons or for otherwise - I truly believe that if it weren't the men of this country who controlled the government, abortion wouldn't be an issue.

Anyway....

As I said, I don't consider a fetus a baby, and I do not get all bent out of shape when an anti-abortionist shows me a picture of an aborted fetus that looks like a bay.

I know that there are premature births at what, 5-6 months where the baby survives, and I'll grant you that once outside the womb, if it survives then it's a baby.

But once it's outside the womb, it's been born, so of course it's a baby.

Generally speaking though, if the fetus can't be expected to live on it's own it outside the womb, then I don't consider it to be a baby, and don't consider abortion to be murder or slaughter.

Is abortion "wrong"? In my opinion, yes, it is when an abortion is performed as a matter of convenience (not in cases of rape, incest, when the health of the mother is at stake, etc.).

But in our society we sometimes have to allow for "moral wrongs" when they are for the greater good.

Bringing unwanted babies into the world, or forcing children to have babies and adding to the welfare rolls and perpetuating the same vicious cycles over and over again, or forcing a woman to give up the control of her own body and her own life when it is the men who are making the rules and do not ever have to subject themselves to the same set of conditions that the woman does, or allowing men to father children that they take absolutely no subsequent responsibility for, etc., etc. is far worse, to me, than allowing abortions.

You can't solve all of those problems with the one word answer "adoption."

Nice IMing with you, Afs.

You know how it goes. I'm a little sleepy now......

Sorry Plaw, this GBB chatroom didn't let me in.

What chat room?

I never go there. I like to keep my cyber-sex private.

Oh, all right. I felt bad thinking you might have been waiting there.

Sorry, Plaw, but science is not on your side. Your idea of "not being a human being, a person, or even a baby" doesn't stand up. From the time of conception, a baby has 46 chromosomes, which is the unique genetic signature of a human being. All of its DNA, its genomes, are all in place. There is no question of what it is growing into.By your logic, this means that children themselves aren't humans, because, after all, they aren't fully grown and developed.

Arguing about when life begins certainly does rationalize and trivialize the subject - otherwise, it forces abortionists to admit they are killing a living human being. By concocting some non-scientific argument about how life "doesn't begin until after birth" is not only factually incorrect but, when used for the purpose of promoting infanticide, morally reprehensible.

Again, you are wholly incorrect when you say that a baby (or "fetus" or "zygote" or whatever stage in development you wish to say) is a "completely unique organism," because it is not. Why are premature babies "humans" then? Wouldn't they be some other, alien life form, by this logic?

I have to say Plaw, I'm suprised you'd be willing to make such bold, unsubstantiated statements, especially when the facts are against you.

Cheers,
Double-J

Horseshit. Let's call a 'spade' a 'spade.'

Well, suppose I got raped. Then I probably have to prove that I was raped, right? How long will it take so that I can get such a court order? By then, five months might have been passed already and it will cause the mother a great danger to abort pregnancy.

Women are in charge whether you like it or not, and fetus depends on them. If I get raped and pregnant as the result, I'd like to get an abortion, if not legally possible, through illegal venues. Morally wrong? Yes. But it is not your place to force your morals on me. It is my choice and it always will be, legal or illegal.

Well, suppose I got raped. Then I probably have to prove that I was raped, right? How long will it take so that I can get such a court order? By then, five months might have been passed already and it will cause the mother a great danger to abort pregnancy.

Women are in charge whether you like it or not, and fetus depends on them. If I get raped and pregnant as the result, I'd like to get an abortion, if not legally possible, through illegal venues. Morally wrong? Yes. But it is not your place to force your morals on me. It is my choice and it always will be, legal or illegal. [/b][/quote]So a human being, despite being wholly dependant on others and in a state of dependancy, should be killed on-demand because of a "mother's" whim?

Goodness gracious. I guess we could just start mass-murdering all of the elderly in nursing homes, people in comas, and the disabled in general.

:rolleyes:

You must remember, Double-J...there are always going to be those type of people who insist on labelling everything and anything. It apparently assists in their rationalization process.

Whether we decide to call it a baby before or after it is born is really inconsequential to the subject of abortion. Whatever you want to call it while inside the womb, it is a living, growing being which we know will eventually become a baby, if it is allowed to come to term.

Abortion is the ending of that life. And while many like to bring up the worst-case scenarios of rape, incest and 'potential' deadbeat dads...its legality has definitely become a source of convenience to end MANY unwanted pregnancies over the past 30 years. Some women are glad they've had abortions and some women (and men) have regretted it every day and even become pro-life activists.

I don't think Roe v. Wade will be overturned just because of the two newest Supreme Court appointees ... but the tide is definitely turning toward abortion once again becoming illegal. May take several more years but it will happen.

Apple