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Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141591
12/28/05 02:42 PM
12/28/05 02:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,190 Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Don Jasani
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Who are your top 10 modern world leaders? mine:
1. Mohandas K. Mahatma Gandhi (India) 2. Winston Churchill (The United Kingdom) 3. Pierre E. Trudeau (Canada) 4. Franklin D. Roosevelt (The U.S.A.) 5. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey) 6. Vaclav Havel (The Czech Republic) 7. Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 8. Eamon De Valera (Ireland) 9. W.L.M. King (Canada) 10. Lester B. Pearson (Canada)
Honourable Mentions: Robert L. Borden (Canada), John F. Kennedy (The United States of America), Theodore Roosevelt (U.S.A.), Louis St. Laurent (Can.), Woodrow Wilson (U.S.A.)
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141592
12/28/05 02:54 PM
12/28/05 02:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 723 The free Iraq
Aziatic
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#1,2,4,7 would be in my top 10 too. IMO, Konrad Adenauer (Germany) deserves a high spot too. He was the best politician/leader Germany had. He also had very difficult conditions, Germany after the World War but he knew which direction to go. Truly one of the greatest!
Quote of the Moment: "Fredo - you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever." Michael Corleone My DVD Collection | My Showroom
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141595
12/28/05 03:21 PM
12/28/05 03:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 54
Cuneo
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Give JFK some time and he wouldve been a key figure in foreign affairs if he wasnt assasinated
"Finance is a gamble, Politics is just knowing when to pull the trigger."
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141596
12/28/05 03:23 PM
12/28/05 03:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 723 The free Iraq
Aziatic
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Originally posted by Don Smitty: GEORGE W. BUSH & RONALD REAGAN. TONY BLAIR & MARGRET THATCHER TEDDY ROOSEVELT & HARRY S. TRUMAN
The only world leaders with any balls!
The rest of the world leaders like Charac could learn something if they follwed the path that these great leaders have taken.
DS I doubt Thatcher had any balls :p But foreal, Tony Blair is besides Juschentschko (Ukraine) the only politician in Europe I really respect today. The Iron Lady was great too, especially reagrding the Kuwait/Saddam "thing" back in 1991. Even if its not about the worst politicians, but Chirac would top my list for the "dumbest politicians in western democraties" :rolleyes:
Quote of the Moment: "Fredo - you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever." Michael Corleone My DVD Collection | My Showroom
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141597
12/28/05 03:31 PM
12/28/05 03:31 PM
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Enzo Scifo
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Originally posted by Don Smitty: GEORGE W. BUSH & RONALD REAGAN. TONY BLAIR & MARGRET THATCHER TEDDY ROOSEVELT & HARRY S. TRUMAN
The only world leaders with any balls! But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes: 1. FD Roosevelt 2. Mandela 3. Ghandi 4. Churchill 5. Verhofstadt 6. Kennedy 7. Allende 8. Lenin 9. Adenauer
See, we can act as smart as we want, but at the end of the day, we still follow a guy who fucks himself with kebab skewers.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141598
12/28/05 03:38 PM
12/28/05 03:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 723 The free Iraq
Aziatic
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Originally posted by Enzo Scifo: [quote]Originally posted by Don Smitty: [b] GEORGE W. BUSH & RONALD REAGAN. TONY BLAIR & MARGRET THATCHER TEDDY ROOSEVELT & HARRY S. TRUMAN
The only world leaders with any balls! But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes: 1. FD Roosevelt 2. Mandela 3. Ghandi 4. Churchill 5. Verhofstadt 6. Kennedy 7. Allende 8. Lenin 9. Adenauer [/b][/quote]You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult. To quote Reagan: How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.
Quote of the Moment: "Fredo - you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever." Michael Corleone My DVD Collection | My Showroom
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141599
12/28/05 04:03 PM
12/28/05 04:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,854 Milky Way
Enzo Scifo
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Originally posted by Aziatic: You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult. Wait, not so fast. :p You haven't heard yet why I put Lenin in the list. It's not what you think it is, though. I don't feel like explaining now, but I'll do it tomorrow. Okay?
See, we can act as smart as we want, but at the end of the day, we still follow a guy who fucks himself with kebab skewers.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141600
12/28/05 04:06 PM
12/28/05 04:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
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Originally posted by Aziatic: [quote]Originally posted by Enzo Scifo: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Don Smitty: [b] GEORGE W. BUSH & RONALD REAGAN. TONY BLAIR & MARGRET THATCHER TEDDY ROOSEVELT & HARRY S. TRUMAN
The only world leaders with any balls! But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes: 1. FD Roosevelt 2. Mandela 3. Ghandi 4. Churchill 5. Verhofstadt 6. Kennedy 7. Allende 8. Lenin 9. Adenauer [/b][/quote]You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult. To quote Reagan: How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. [/b][/quote]If you are anticommunist, Aziatic, why do you call him Idiot? If understanding of his works must make people anticommunists, you should rather praise him... 
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141604
12/28/05 04:24 PM
12/28/05 04:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 723 The free Iraq
Aziatic
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Originally posted by Enzo Scifo: [quote]Originally posted by Aziatic: [b] You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult. Wait, not so fast. :p You haven't heard yet why I put Lenin in the list. It's not what you think it is, though. I don't feel like explaining now, but I'll do it tomorrow. Okay? [/b][/quote]Take your time. I'd like to read your reasons... Originally posted by JustMe: If you are anticommunist, Aziatic, why do you call him Idiot? If understanding of his works must make people anticommunists, you should rather praise him... Good point hehe Looking back at history and what history has taught us, it really makes me speechless why people still consider Lenin or the other "fathers of communism" great. Anyways, my intention is not to hijack this thread or change the subject or anything, Im just wondering...
Quote of the Moment: "Fredo - you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever." Michael Corleone My DVD Collection | My Showroom
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141606
12/28/05 04:26 PM
12/28/05 04:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536 West Chester, PA
Patrick
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Originally posted by Don Jasani: Have you included them on your list because you feel that they were sucessful as world leaders (an argument can be made for this because they did maintain the terrritorial integrity of their nations) or because you admire them and think that they were great men? The title of the thread is 'Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders,' not 'great men.'
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141607
12/28/05 04:33 PM
12/28/05 04:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,190 Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Don Jasani
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Some of the arguments for Stalin being worse than Hitler are weak and some are strong. I didn't say Stalin was worse than Hitler or vice versa, I'm quite sure they're both burning in hell, so either way.
In terms of the total number of deaths caused by Hitler (those he was directly responsible for) and the total caused by Stalin, Stalin was the greater evil. Also, Stalin was directly responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of his people, and some may argue that this is worse than what Hitler did. Again I'm not saying that I'm one of these people I'm just saying that an argument could be made.
However, Stalin did fight with the Alies against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union did suffer the most losses in WWII and in terms of the total number of deaths caused by Hitler (whether directly or as a result of the war) and the total number caused by Stalin, Hitler was the greater evil. It's very touchy to make arguments either way because very many people today have families who were affected in one way or another by the two men and when emotions get involved, rational discourse usually gets thrown out the window. Regardless, I don't believe that Stalin should be on a list of the top 10 modern world leaders. If it were a list of the top 10 most influential, important or significant modern world leaders, it would be a different matter.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141609
12/28/05 04:50 PM
12/28/05 04:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
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Originally posted by Don Jasani:
In terms of the total number of deaths caused by Hitler (those he was directly responsible for) and the total caused by Stalin, Stalin was the greater evil. Also, Stalin was directly responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of his people, and some may argue that this is worse than what Hitler did. Again I'm not saying that I'm one of these people I'm just saying that an argument could be made. Numbers depend on those who count. Nothing is so easily faked as history. We are not to decide who should burn in hell. I'm not arguing at all, I'm too old for it...  I just find it strange that someone can say "he was just evil". He might have done wrongs as it is, there's no necessity to accuse him of what he hasn't done. And there's nothing wrong with many good, even great deeds of his. Especially liberating the world from faschism. During his time many immigrants returned to the USSR, by the way. It was he, who stopped presecution of Christians and restored the Orthodox church to its proper place in the society. And it was he, who punished the Lenins bloody executioners who killed the Nation's elite almost entirely in 1920s. You are right to suggest that I'm personally partial - almost whole family of my grandmother was among them. OK, let's not hijack the topic anymore. 
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141611
12/28/05 06:47 PM
12/28/05 06:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,854 Milky Way
Enzo Scifo
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Originally posted by Aziatic: Take your time. I'd like to read your reasons... Here's the first reason. Originally posted by Patrick: The title of the thread is 'Top 10 20th/21st Century [b]World Leaders,' not 'great men.' [/b] Second will follow tomorrow.
See, we can act as smart as we want, but at the end of the day, we still follow a guy who fucks himself with kebab skewers.
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141612
12/28/05 06:54 PM
12/28/05 06:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058 The Slippery Slope
plawrence
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Originally posted by Patrick: 1. Franklin D. Roosevelt 2. Winston Churchill 3. Theodore Roosevelt 4. Ho Chi Minh 5. Mohandas Gandhi 6. Vladimir Lenin 7. John F. Kennedy 8. Joseph Stalin 9. Mao Zedong 10. Bill Clinton What? No Fidel Castro?  :p As has been kind of suggested, to answer this question proprly one must know the criteria for being considered a "Top World Leader".
"Difficult....not impossible"
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141615
12/29/05 04:04 AM
12/29/05 04:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
Lavinia from Italy
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Originally posted by JustMe: If you are anticommunist, Aziatic, why do you call him Idiot? If understanding of his works must make people anticommunists, you should rather praise him... very well said, JM!  Plus, Lenin was anything but an idiot. Aziatic, do you know what "idiot" commonly means?  :p
I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be truth (Blanche/A streetcar named desire)
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141616
12/29/05 06:16 AM
12/29/05 06:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Aziatic
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Originally posted by Lavinia from Italy: [quote]Originally posted by JustMe: [b] If you are anticommunist, Aziatic, why do you call him Idiot? If understanding of his works must make people anticommunists, you should rather praise him... very well said, JM!  Plus, Lenin was anything but an idiot. Aziatic, do you know what "idiot" commonly means?  :p [/b][/quote]Lav, I thought you would be on my side :p You can see it this way: He was intelligent in a negative way. But really, Stalin pretty much realized Lenins theories and ideology :rolleyes: I am an anticommunist but I have reasons to, hell I once refused to park in the Karl-Marx-Street here in our city :p
Quote of the Moment: "Fredo - you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever." Michael Corleone My DVD Collection | My Showroom
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Re: Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders
#141619
12/29/05 09:59 AM
12/29/05 09:59 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Enzo Scifo
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Originally posted by Aziatic: [quote]Originally posted by Enzo Scifo: [b]1. FD Roosevelt 2. Mandela 3. Ghandi 4. Churchill 5. Verhofstadt 6. Kennedy 7. Allende 8. Lenin 9. Adenauer You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult. To quote Reagan: How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. [/b][/quote]Communism is IMO one of the best ideas ever. It starts from the idea "every human is equal like the other". But, it can only exist with the goodwill of people, all people must have the same "every human is equal like the other"-idea. In reality, communism doesn't work, for various reasons, but also because not all people have that goodwill I mentioned. Now, Lenin was the first to actually make that beautyful idea of Marx reality. He tried, but of course it didn't work and the SU became a dictatorship, in which there was a very strong state (sort of an extreme socialism) instead of no state , which is the goal of real communism. So Lenin unintentionally made us realize that real communism can never exist, en he also showed (together with Stalin) that when trying to make communism, you always end up in a dictatorship. That's why I think he was one of the greatest world-leaders, and of course because of his noble goals.
See, we can act as smart as we want, but at the end of the day, we still follow a guy who fucks himself with kebab skewers.
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