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President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139600
12/16/05 01:26 PM
12/16/05 01:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536 West Chester, PA
Patrick
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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Report: Bush eased domestic spy rules after 9/11 Eavesdropping allowed without search warrants, NYT says
The New York Times reports that President Bush signed the order easing eavesdropping rules in 2002.
NEW YORK (AP) -- President Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States -- without getting search warrants -- following the Sept. 11 attacks, The New York Times reports.
The presidential order, which Bush signed in 2002, has allowed the agency to monitor the international phone calls and international e-mails of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States, according to a story posted Thursday on the Times' Web site.
Before the new program began, the NSA typically limited its domestic surveillance to foreign embassies and missions and obtained court orders to do so. Under the post-Sept. 11 program, the NSA has eavesdropped, without warrants, on as many 500 people inside the United States at any given time. Overseas, 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time.
The Times said reporters interviewed nearly a dozen current and former administration officials about the program and granted them anonymity because of the classified nature of the program.
Government officials credited the new program with uncovering several terrorist plots, including one by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting al Qaeda by planning to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge, the report said.
But some NSA officials were so concerned about the legality of the program that they refused to participate, the Times said. Questions about the legality of the program led the administration to temporarily suspend it last year and impose new restrictions.
Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the group's initial reaction to the disclosure was "shock that the administration has gone so far in violating American civil liberties to the extent where it seems to be a violation of federal law."
Asked about the administration's contention that the eavesdropping has disrupted terrorist attacks, Fredrickson said the ACLU couldn't comment until it sees some evidence. "They've veiled these powers in secrecy so there's no way for Congress or any independent organizations to exercise any oversight."
The Bush administration had briefed congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that handles national security issues.
Aides to National Intelligence Director John Negroponte and West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, declined to comment Thursday night.
The Times said it delayed publication of the report for a year because the White House said it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. The Times said it omitted information from the story that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists. ------- I thought of this as fairly shocking. I knew that he violated many Constitutional rights with the Patriot Act, but wow. I never thought he'd go this far.
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139603
12/16/05 01:53 PM
12/16/05 01:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058 The Slippery Slope
plawrence
RIP StatMan
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RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
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Here....Let me sum up this argument before it even begins, and we'll save everyone a lot of time and aggravation and JG a lot of space: If you believe that "the ends justifies the means" - that it's OK for the government to do almost anything that they want to in the name of "The War on Terror" - then you won't have a problem with this. If you don't, then you will. Everyone is entitled to take whichever side they wish, but I hope that everyone would agree that there is a danger here. (Sitting back now, awaiting the ACLU-bashing posts, and the "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" comments. :p )
"Difficult....not impossible"
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139607
12/16/05 07:26 PM
12/16/05 07:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770
UK
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Nice summary plaw but allow me if I may to express it in musical form: The Jam: Going Underground What you see is what you get You’ve made your bed, you better lie in it You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies wash you down and their promises rust You’ll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns
And the public wants what the public gets But I don’t get what this society wants I’m going underground
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139611
12/16/05 08:33 PM
12/16/05 08:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,907 Born on the Bayou
Saladbar
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,907
Born on the Bayou
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Originally posted by Snake: And, yes, plaw, if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about!
BTW, we all know what a great source of truthful, objective news that the Times is! Well, Fox News covered this too. This was an illegal move. More specifically, he directed parts of the Executive to violate clear statutes.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it"
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139612
12/16/05 09:05 PM
12/16/05 09:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,389 State Asylum
Snake
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,389
State Asylum
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"All that you touch, all that you see, all that you taste, all you feel; All that you love, all that you hate, all you distrust, all you save; all that you give, all that you deal, all that you buy, beg, borrow or steal; All you create, all you destroy, all that you do, all that you say; All that you eat, everyone you meet, all that you slight, everyone you right; All that is now, all that is gone, all that's to come, and everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the mooo-ooon."
"Vaya con Dios, Castle. Go with God." "God's going to sit this one out." The Punisher (2004)
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139613
12/16/05 09:10 PM
12/16/05 09:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770
UK
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Good God, I've turned a perfectly good political thread into Karaoke night.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: President gives thumbs up on eavesdropping without a warrant
#139614
12/16/05 10:18 PM
12/16/05 10:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984 California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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Can't say I'm surprised. :rolleyes: Thoughh I don't think it's a matter of "anything to hide". I just think it's plain wrong to have such a "broad" power. I live far from an exciting, and very far from criminal life, and I'd be pissed if I were getting monitored. What exactly are the laws/guidlines here? From the attached article... Something like this sounds reasonable: "Prior to 9/11, the NSA typically limited its domestic surveillance activities to foreign embassies and missions —and obtained court orders for such investigations. Much of its work was overseas, where thousands of people with suspected terrorist ties or other valuable intelligence may be monitored. " However, I would have a problem with the Domestic communications mentioned here. "The surveillance, disclosed in Friday's New York Times, is said to allow the agency to monitor international calls and e-mail messages of people inside the United States. But the paper said the agency would still seek warrants to snoop on purely domestic communications — for example, Americans' calls between New York and California." All I can say is they'd better have damn good evidence to "eavesdrop", and there should be limits, no matter who's in charge. I'm not familiar with the laws here, but whatever happened to the "rule of law" that was cited so much during the Clinton scandal??? TIS web page
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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