You're right. And I apologize to you for pre-conceiving about something that you might say.


Don Cardi

If you only knew.


Don Cardi

That's actually a great question. I'm curious to know what some of the people on here supporting the war have to say to that. They can't possibly say that we attacked Iraq because Saddam committed genocide. If so, than why aren't their millions of people rooting Bush to go into Sudan? The genocide in Sudan was and still is far greater than any genocide Saddam was ever part of.

If you only knew. [/b][/quote]Enlighten us.

If I'm not mistaken, Aziatic is the only person here who knows firsthand what he's talking about, and yet everyone passed over his post to continue their own arguments based on second/third/fourth-hand information. I find it interesting how often his nationality is overlooked in these discussions.

Over in the other thread, the entire subject of which was the Iraqi people's opinion and views on the war, someone refuted him when he gave his input. I thought his input would be the most topic-appropriate? Anyone else find this a little ridiculous?

He lives in Germany, not Iraq. He's not in Iraq right now.

Yes Aziatic is probably the only Iraqi I know on this board. And I agree with you that he must be having a lot of knowledge on the situation. But again he is an individual with his own views. For example, having mostly american members here is not a guarantee of all of them agreeing on something. And we know they don't, considering all these political threads. Aziatic is pro war as I gather from his posts. I bet that there would be a lot of anti war iraqis as well.

Yes Zia, you are 100% correct. He's experienced a Saddam run Iraq firsthand, and if memory serves me correctly he and his family had to flee.( Please correct me Aziatic if i've mixed up what you once shared with me).

Yet, those who are safe in their own homes over here have refuted what Aziatic shares with us about the whole Iraq situation.

I for one feel that his feelings about this whole situation in Iraq are the most Valid ones out of all of these posts. He's lived it first hand, so he knows better than any of us.


Don Cardi

But you, Pat, Zia, DS and myself have NEVER experienced the kind of life that Aziatic did. So who are we to debate his views on what is going on in a country where he had lived under Saddam? It is obvious that his life under a dictatorship was a horrible one. And he feels that his homeland will eventually be a better place then it once was. So who the hell are any of us to dispute Aziatic on this issue?


Don Cardi

So you think his views should go uncriticized just because he used to live in Iraq?

I think his views are more valid, factual, and on the money because he, unlike you and I, lived in the turmoil of a dictatorship. You and I haven't, so you and I cannot really tell him that he is wrong about something that he experienced and we didn't.

You see Pat, as you grow older in life and start to experience certain things, you will realize that not everything is as it once seemed before you've experienced it. Then your views change, and you will have a much better understanding of a situation. Then you will realize that the next person who has not experienced what you have cannot really give as fair an assesment as you now could because of your experience. You'll understand someday.


Don Cardi

Now I agree with this statement, though many people blew it out of context. Sure, US troops kill civilians, but TDWFL never said anything about doing it on purpose. Truth be told, US troops are not only killing Iraqi civilians, but also being killed by them. Carbombs and grenades, and shit like that go off every day leaving more and more soldiers dead. If I were in that situation, I'd be trigger happy too. I'm finding many similiarities between Iraq and Vietnam when it comes to the people in general. We're going over there to fight, but in some instances, we don't know who we're fighting. Sure, we're against the terrorists, but they're not wearing a name tag.

Don Cardi:
Saddam INTENTIONLLY went out for the last 20 years and murdered 10's of thousands of people. SO don't put the GI Joes in the same category as Saddam.

And though I agree with the doc's statement, I also believe DC has made a good point. The soldiers should not be compared to Saddam. There is a moral difference. Saddam intentionally gased his people. Our soldiers are accidently shooting innocent civilians. The military is not an easy career. In this situation, you should reach a consensus for your comments, because you both have a valid point.

We are at war in there and yes, unfortunately during a war people die, and I don't like it anymore than you do, but unfortunately that's what happens in a war.

Now this is what makes me angry amongst many war supporters (most of them are "conservative", until it comes to fucking fighting). They use this "war is expensive" shit to justify why we should go to war. Like the average consumer, they basically claim, "sense it costs more, it must be worth it". For once, why can't we just sit back and listen to how somebody else feels. Some of these European countries we've easily pissed off. Maybe we'd have less war if we had more support.

You are right. I will never argue with him over any of the facts that he presents here about iraq. But sometimes it is opinions. But still I don't argue on his opinions, because I guess his opinions may be based on facts that I don't fully know about. However he is not the only source of information we have, right? Suppose I were to gather how Americans feel about a given subject, how do I go about it? I know yourself and Pat have lived in America for many many years. But obviously you differ on a lot of topics. Suppose, only one of you (DC OR Pat) were a member of this board and I were to find out how Americans feel about the war. If I were to take that one view on face value, I will have gathered a very one-sided picture of the situation. Obviously I would have missed the divide of opinions that exists in America about the war. So what I am saying is this - I don't dispute any of what Aziatic says or feels. But I also don't preclude the possibility of his his opinion not being shared by the Iraqi majority. Do I know what the majority feels? NO I don't claim that. However I am definitely interested to know. Through Aziatic, media or whoever.

DC you are allowing yourself to be drawn into a discussion about the conduct of our military in Iraq, which, IMHO has, for the most part been about as good as it gets in a war. Abu Grahib was NOT IMHO an isolated incident cause by a few rotten apples, but the extension of a policy from the top down allowing for torture. The problems our troops have is that this war is being managed with complete incompetence. They sent too few troops in, they have too few there now, they are not properly armed, they do not have proper protection, and they have been given ridiculous orders. At the beginning of the war you will recall that the Iraqis looted all the ministries EXCEPT the oil ministry, which we guarded (hmm wonder why). We literally tore apart what little infrastructure they had left, and we alienated the Sunnis who were used to running things. The problem now is we need to find a way out, and what is most likely to happen is that we are going to pull back to Kuwait and Jordan, and then start an air war against the insurgency (which btw is about 89-90% indigenous, not foregin al queada as the administration would have us believe...in fact even people who supported us there at the beginning have turned on us).

The last war of choice we fought was when we invaded Cambodia and widened the war in Indochina. That blunder was calculated to get rid of a brutal corrupt dictator named King Sihanouk (sp) . Well, you know how that turned out. When we left there was no infrasytructure left and the king was replaced by Pol Pot who was the most murderous leader of a country since Hitler.

If Iraq devolves into a civil war, which is more likely than not, whoever winds up taking it over is going to make Saddam Hussein look like Barney Frank.

What the dead enders supporting the US Administration have to understand is this was was a complete mistake from the get go. It was ill conceived and poooly planned and it had no exit strategy.

Agreed Saddam was a bad guy who gassed Kurds, killed and tortured people and all the rest. Do you think Musharef in Pakistan is not doing the same thing? How about the Chinese? If our mission is to rid the world of bad dictators, we have a lot worse to deal with than Saddam.
Yes, he was a bad guy, but what will succeed him will be worse.

I say turn it back over to him.

In the Democratic Republic of Congo, there was a war from 1997 until 2004, in which there was en genocide of 4,000,000 people. The standard of living is below zero. Economy just doesn't exist there. There is aids, extreme poverty, extreme violence, mass rapings, people die of simple to solve diseases like diarrea and fever.

Why didn't the USA went to solve that problem, instead of going to Iraq, where, with all disrespect for Saddam, people weren't dying at a rate of 3000 a day, for 10 years long. Where people weren't dying from extreme hunger and stupid diseases...
Maybe because presidents aren't interested in neutral countries of countries without oil?

????
I once read that, and I'm not sure about the exact numbers, that to equip 1 soldier, takes somewhere around 25,000$. More arming will become impayable...

I thought that you support the troops but you dont support the war? How is that supporting the troops then?


DS

I thought that you support the troops but you dont support the war? How is that supporting the troops then?


DS [/b][/quote]Nothing confusing about it DS. Supporting the troops means not making them do three to five tours of duty, putting them in the middle of a chaotic situation like a bunch of sitting ducks, and getting them the hell out of a place where they never should have been sent in the first place.
The troops are now in harms way because George Bush is too proud to admit he made a mistake. As a man of God (allegedly) Bush ought to know that Pride is the deadliest of sins.

I can't believe someone would actually want to destroy any hopes of Iraqi democracy and instead advocate leaving the country in the hands of dictator who would undoubtedly unleash a bloodbath once he regained power.

Would you have also liked to turn Germany over to the Nazis after World War II? After all, Germany was in shambles after the war and faced an uncertain future. Nazi rule would have provided stability, right?

It's really very disturbing to hear you proclaim from your computer chair that Iraq would be better off in the hands of a genocidal maniac while millions of Iraqis and Americans risk their lives every day in the hope of establishing a democracy.

Please do not misrepresent what I am saying. My point is that we are going to leave Iraq off in worse condition than we found it because the war is being run by total incompetents. It is the same scenario as Cambodia. One brutal dictator was replaced by another one who was worse -- Pol Pot. BTW in Germany and Japan after WWII the US and allies worked closely with people affiliated with the enemy governments to make sure the infrastructures (to the extent they existed) could be run. In Iraq we had a policy that said anyone who was a member of the Baath party could not participate. This was pure idiocy. Now we are asking them to come back in.

I thought that you support the troops but you dont support the war? How is that supporting the troops then?


DS [/b][/quote]So, if I'm against the war, I don't support the troops?

How would that work?

Does it mean I want to see them all killed? Does it mean I want to see them ill-equipped, ill-fed, underpaid, and abused by their leaders?

Or, let me put it another way:

You define "Support The Troops" for me, and I'll tell you weather or not I support them.

Or define for me what "Not Supporting The Troops" means.

I support them. They're there. IMO, the shouldn't be there, but there is little I can do about it except on Election Day.

I want them out of there as quickly as possible. I think that the war is wrong, and it will eventually prove that our soldiers died for nothing.

But they are there. That's a fact. So while they are there, I support them.

I think that they should have the very best equipment, food, clothing, and arms, and, as DT said above, if I may paraphrase a bit, "Supporting the troops means that I don't want to see them do three to five tours of duty, be put in the middle of a chaotic situation like a bunch of sitting ducks, and getting them the hell out of a place where they never should have been sent to in the first place."

Germany already had had a democracy before Hitler. It was called the Weimar Republic. So the people knew what it was.
But in Iraq, there was never democracy. And it won't just come when you clean up one dictator, because they're not used to democracy.
Democracy is a gradual proces, and the iniatives eventually have to come from the population, and they have to have the will to do away with people who are against democracy.

Germany already had had a democracy before Hitler. It was called the Weimar Republic. So the people knew what it was.
But in Iraq, there was never democracy. And it won't just come when you clean up one dictator, because they're not used to democracy.
Democracy is a gradual proces, and the iniatives eventually have to come from the population, and they have to have the will to do away with people who are against democracy. [/QB][/quote]Japan never had a democracy, but we completely and unabashedly occupied it. That cant happen in Iraq.

Thanks Letizia , I followed most of the subjects concerning Iraq and even if there posts which dont belong directly to the subject I like to read how people view this war. But as you mentioned, I found it abit weird that there was like one reply to my post. I just want to express how MOST people of my country felt and still feel about the war.

Thats right, I live in Germany but I lived there for 12 years under Saddam and even if Ive been here in Germany the last 9 years, Ive been in Iraq atleast 5 times since then and my father is atleast 3 times A YEAR in Iraq since he is active in politics so I should know how the situation there is, dont you think?

I get your point svsg and you are of course right, it is my OPINION, but I also implied that most people feel just like me because thats a fact and not because I want to tell you my opionion is right, its because I want to tell you how IRAQIS and NOT ONLY how I feel. There are some anti-war Iraqis, but I can assure you they are really a minority. Nearly all of them worked directly under Saddam and were Sunites and some smaller terrorist groups which view this whole think as a holy war (so that is no national question anymore). I think the high percentage of people who participated at the elections (even at those security conditions) underline that fact.

Appreciate it very much DC, thank You. Again, I didnt say that one is wrong in their opionions when talking about they feel about this whole war (even if I disagree with alot) but I want to let you all know how most IRAQIS feel, what the ther thread was about anyway.

Yes it was a horrible life, I was even happy to live for "only" 12 years under such a regime, already experiencing 2 direct wars (Iran, Kuwait) and one indirectly (the liberation war 2003) besides all the everyday struggle and war between Saddam and us. What about the poeple who were born since the first day of Saddams regime, like my parents and millions of other Iraqis...

We are discussing here. You can critizise whoever and whatever you (whoever) want as long as they are not ignorant and just stupid statements like the title of this thread.

We never had a true democracy in Iraq and alot of people there didnt live a life under freedom like Europe and the US and other countries have the privilege to live in but we know what FREEDOM is. And with freedom, democracy will be introduced. And we arlready are free since more than 2 years and have the right to elect. It might be something usual to some of you guys here that you forget to appreciate it but please dont come with comments like "it was better under Saddam" and that this thing will NEVER work. We ARE free. We HAVE THE RIGHT to elect, say whatever we want (Over 160 daily newspapers in bagdad alone!!!).
The security, in few cities anyways IS NOT there but we, with the help of the allies are working on it and are making process. Unfortuantely, outside of Iraq, people only get a view of the terrible things that are going on there, which are facts (most of them anyways) but do not have any idea about the positive things. And lets not forget that murder was habitual under Saddam, so its nothing new that alot of people are getting killed.

There are elections in about 2 Weeks and there will be most likely (hopefully) a regime change over tehre since Dschafaari isnt a good man IMO and alot of Shiites who voted for him are insatisfied with his actions and if we believe most of the statistocs he has NO CHANCE to win again (his party). There will be most likely a liberal party(not "liberal" as most of people interpret it in the US) but a party which doesnt include religion in its program. Then, the connections to the regime of Iran (which is responsible for alot of bad processes in the US) will become "thin".
It is and will be a LONG process of democratization in my country and the war against terror is difficult but the right will win and we will succeed achieving our goals, and those of each human being, living under a democratic system which assures everyone his rights.

Thanks for reading,
Aziatic

Great post Mr. Baggins, thats exactly my point. I find alot of paralels between "the third reich" and "iraq under saddam" and try to underline my view of this war with the experience with Hiter and history.

Yes Germany had a democracy with the Weimarer Republic. But as I posted before, just because a nation didnt experience democracy doesnt mean it doesnt want to be lieberated and doesnt "get used" to live free.
It took 4 years in Germany to have a constituion, we had it shortly after the war. Now Im not saying that the constitution is what its all about, but Im saying even in countries where there was a democracy before, it is a hard and long process because regimes (Hitler, Saddam) destroyed most of the things, even physical aspects of human beings, that have to be "rebuild".
Another example, Germany also was seperated for 30 years! And TODAY (60 years after Hitler is gone) you still find some people who symphathize with Hitler, which are a minority of course, but I dont go on and say "Germans are fascist/rassist and dont want democracy but their old regime", and its similar with Iraqis. My point is, dont view those terrorist attacks/suicide bombers etc. as a "response" of the Iraqis, but as a small minority, hell, more than 90 percent of those terrorists (!!!) are foreigners anyway.

:D


Don Cardi

:D


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Correction: You can critizise whoever and whatever you (whoever) want as long as they are not ignorant and just stupid statements like the title of this thread.

Aziatic, I posted that smile because I agreed with your statement about the title of this thread.

As a matter of fact just the thought of giving Iraq back to Saddam makes me want to .

Yes, let's just forget about all of the Soldier's lives that were lost fighting in this war, the Soldier's lives that were affected physically and the the lives of those Iraqi's who died because they believed in fighting for freedom. Let's just give it right back to Saddam and the hell with those lives. :rolleyes:

Not only would giving Iraq back to Saddam be a dishonor to the families of those who died and to the memory of those soldiers in general,it basically would be telling the Iraqi people Fuck you.

A ridiculous idea. Outrageous.


Don Cardi