Your example, SB, is a case of rape.

And the reason you are calling my examples "ridiculous" is because you know that the penalty should not be the same in each case, even though all four cases are, by definition, rape.

Or do you think the penalties should be the same in all four cases?

Take out the frat boys and the medical students if you like.

I still say that the same crime, committed under different circumstances, may warrant different punishments.

That holds true for murder and every other crime. Why not rape also?

BTW.....

I absolutely agree with the juries in that each of the women in the above scenarios were rape victims.

The question is, should the sentence be the same for each of the rapists?

I never said that "rape is rape". There is always grey in any issue. The point of my response was to point out that you wrote that being raped by someone you know is somehow less of a crime than being raped by a stranger. And that kind of attitude is why women who ARE the victims of date rape are afraid to report the crime. It is that very attitude that somehow diminishes the act, and it is an attitude that I despise.

I changed it to read "some cases of date rape."

As far as the "rape is rape" statement made by DMC and DC, I believe that they were responding to Enzo's posts that there are mitigating circumstances, such as when the rapist last had sex, if there was alcohol involved, if the victim "teased" and if there was premeditation (and DC and DMC, forgive me for speaking for you, and feel free to correct me if what I am about to say is wrong).

I believe that is what they were responding to when they agreed that "rape is rape" and that there would be little reason for any leniency from the judge if the defendant tried to plead alcohol or lack of a past sex life as good reasons to get a light sentence.

As for the scenarios you posted, are they all rape?? I would definitely agree with the first two, I'm not sure about the third, and the fourth would hopefully bear some evidence to prove it one way or another. Is the victim bruised on the wrists from when he held her down, or is her bite mark on his hand from when he tried to silence her cries for help, does the defendant have scratch marks, does the victim have defensive wounds consistent with the attack, does the room show signs of a struggle?? Without further information, it's hard to say.

I think that you are also confusing rape as a sex crime. It is a crime of violence. It is the physical assertion of one human being over another.

Yes SB, I was replying to Enzo's poor examples of different measures :rolleyes: of rape.

And as far as date rape goes, well I appreciate what Plaw is trying to point out, his points are very valid because there are many cases where a woman falsely accuses her date of raping her. And that's a horrible thing for a woman to do to a man too.

But I am sure, or at least I hope, that forensics, DNA and such would prove or disprove a case in a situation like that. As you mentioned marks around the wrists, neck, etc. There are also, (without getting too graphic here, and I apologize if I am) scientific ways to tell if "force was used in that area of a woman and so forth.

However Plaw, I do not appreciate your example of if the man does not know the woman scenerio. There are many many cases of rapes happening where the man knows the woman and has gained her trust. Uncles vs. Nieces, etc. So for you to imply that if a woman knows her attacker, the punishment should be less, is wrong.

To echo what SB said earlier, statements like that and attitudes like that are what make many woman afraid to come forward when they are raped. Especially when they know the attacker and even more so when the attacker is a relative.


Don Cardi

I ammended my original statement about the rapist knowing the victim to read some cases, which is what I mant in the first place.

I'm wondering, though, if you think that the punishments should be the same in all four of the scenarios I created.

Again, let me emphasize that in all four situations I believe that a rape took place and that the jury verdicts of "Guilty" were correct.

I know DC, that I was talking a bit ... dumb. Fact is, I just wanted to prove that not all kinds/circumstances of rape deserve the same punishment. In trying to clarify this, I gave some bad examples. Luckily enough, someone else (PLaw) succeeded better in this.

However, once again, I believe that a serialraper who carefully plannes his rapes at before, is a greater danger to society, and should get a higher punishment.

Still wondering what the "Rape is Rape" people think.....

In light of the fact that no one from the the "Rape is Rape" contingent has offered an opinion, I assume that they agree that the punishments in the scenarios which I described should not all be the same.

Plaw, Your question is an unfair one considering the scenerios that you have presented here. I've stated my reasons below as to why your question is really an unfair one based on YOUR scenerios.

SCENERIO ONE - Clearly Rape. Max sentence that is allowed under the law.

SCENERIO TWO - Clearly Rape. The girl could be the biggest tramp in town, but that does not give any boy a license to force himslef on her against her will. If she does NOT want to give into his sexual wants and resists, and he forces himself on her, it is rape and he should be givin the maximum sentence allowed by law.


SCENERIO THREE - If the FACTS that you brought out in this scenerio were actually brought out in the courtroom, then I don't believe that he would have been found guilty of Rape. So I cannot really answer your question on this one with fairness.


SCENERIO FOUR - This scenerio also lacks facts. Were there any signs of force? Any bruising on the girls body that would indicate that he forced himeslf on here? Any DNA evidence? Or was this kind of evidence lacking in this case? Because if it was, then I find it hard to believe that he would be found guilty. Again, this scenerio is too vague, so I cannot answer this one either.

Basically you've presented TWO scenerios here that I find very hard to believe would result in Guilty verdicts, so how can I answer your question if I don't believe that under the circumstances that you've presented here, they would really have been found guilty?


Don Cardi

In scenario #3

"Brad testifies truthfully under cross-examination that, yes, Jennifer did ask him to stop..."

Doesn't that make it rape? He confessed, didn't he? Should his state of mind be an issue?

Because if it is, how about the frat boy? What must his state of mind been after the girl's performance in the living room, and her clear invitation to him to join her in the bedroom?

In scenario #4...

"The jury believes her rather than Ralph, and despite the lack of any other evidence besides her testimony, Ralph is convicted."

And finally.....

What is it about rape that makes it a crime in which mitigating factors and circumstances should not be considered?

Is rape worse than murder?

If you want to say in #2 that I'm blaming the victim to some extent, I wouldn't argue with you.

Yes, she was raped, but shouldn't she be held accountable, at least to some degree, for her behavior?

Nope. Her behavior is not an open invitation nor does it grant a license to anyone else to violate her body against her will.
In my opinion, if she resisted his advances and he persisted in forcing himself on her, against her will and her wishes, then it is rape.


Don Cardi

I agree that it's rape. I said so at the start.

The problem I have is with the sentence being the same as the first guy.

I think that there are mitigating circumstances in this case.

Or, to put it another way.....I'm sure you would agree that there are mitigating circumstances. The question is, should they be considered in the sentencing?

If you are asking that her sexual activity outside of this rape case be considered, then no, I do not think that sentencing should be based on if she was sexually active or not.

It would be as if the Judge said to himself "well yes he raped her, but she's sexually active, so she probably asked for it. I'll give him a lighter sentence."

Let me ask you this Plaw ; If the girl was a virgin and was raped by the same guy, do you think that his sentence should be harsher than if he raped a sexually active girl?


Don Cardi

I'm not referring to her past sexual history. Only her actions on the night in question.

I don't want to get into graphics here Plaw, but I do NOT think that what took place before he raped her excuses him or should lighten his sentence. If she said no and resisted, then it became his choice. If she went with 3 guys before him and then resisted him and did not want to go with him, and he decided to force himself on her, then that tells me that he considered her past sexual history himself and tried to justify his own actions.


Don Cardi

How could her past sexual history have ANYTHING to do with it?? He raped her, clearly. Her prior actions have NOTHING to do with it and should have NO bearing on his sentence. He raped her. He is a rapist. And allowing him to receive a lighter sentence would be sending a message to males on college campuses and elsewhere to give it a try next time that girl turns you down - just prove she's easy and you'll get a slap on the wrist!!

No male can understand the horror, pain and humiliation of being raped. You can sympathize, empathize, whatever. However, it is not only a sexual violation, but a physical assertion by a stronger being over another, and the hopelessness and helplessness is not to be believed.

Plaw, you should stop turning this horrific crime into one of your little word games. Once again let me repeat, it is a crime that often goes unreported because victims fear the judgments that may await them (after reading some of the posts here, I wonder why a rape victim would fear judgment :rolleyes: ). Maybe we should have one long, harsh and unflinching sentence for every rapist. Unfair, you say? Tough. Maybe it will make up for all those women that were raped and were unable to find justice.

You are right SB. There should be no tolerence laws and sentences for proven guilty rapists.

The she asked for it stuff is bullshit.


DS

So you think the sentence for the second guy should be the same as for the first, DS?

I do.

Yep!


DS

Do you Plaw?


Don Cardi

Obviously not.

I think that there were mitigating circumstances and, as in the case in just about every other crime I can think of, I believe that they should be considered in the sentencing.

And the mitigating circumstance would be her sexual history? Because of her behavior that night? How far back in her past should we continue to go? Ten minutes, ten years? Her sexual past should have no influence on the sentence. That is NOT a mitigating circumstance, IMHO.

Mitigating circumstances : If you are out in a mall and happen to get into a physical fight with someone, you obviously have to defend yourself and you are not looking to intentionally murder your opponent. But in the altercation you hit the guy and he falls down and cracks his head and dies. Well, you never intended to kill him. He was assualting you and it was not that you could stop and say "well do I hit him back or show self control?" You just needed to defended yourself. You were put into a situation where you had no choice but to hit this man back.


NOT Mitigating circumstnaces: A man is in a night club in a hotel bar. He keeps his eye on this woman who has a reputation for being loose. He sees her coming on to several different men throughout the night. She even has sex, by her own choice, with two of his friends that night. Later on that evening the man hooks up with this woman and takes her to his room. He proceeds to try and have sex with her and she says no and resists. He tells himself that she is a tease and that she went with two other guys earlier, so she really wants it. So he justifies his actions in his mind and forces himself on that woman, against her will. That is rape. Plain and simple. Rape. That man may not have set out earlier in the evening to actually rape someone, but the bottom line is that he did wind up raping this woman. No self control, no morals.

The difference in the two examples above are that in the first example, the guy is defending himself and did not have a moment to reason and think about what he was going to do, or he could have died himself.

In the second example the guy DID have a moment to think about what he was goiung to do, he was given the chance to walk away once that girl told him NO and resisted his sexual advances.

Your mitigating circumstances do not apply to the rape from your scenerio. Plaw, what you are doing is justifying the action of rape here! Your saying in a round abour way that because the girl had sex with several other people that night and may have acted like a slut, that her being raped was, in a sense, her fault because of how she acted earlier. And you want the rapist in this case to get a lesser punishement because the girl may have acted like a slut. No dice my friend. At least not in my opinion.


Don Cardi

Her actions on the night in question, I believe, create mitigating circumstances.

Her past history prior to the night in question should have nothing to do with it, unless she was involved in a similar incident in the past and also brought rape chatges.

In that case, I would think that there should at least be reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors as to her veracity.

Actually that's an intersting point altho, admittedly, its somewhat farfetched.

Suppose this was the second or third time she was involved in a similar incident, and was raped every time.

Mitigating circumstances now?

Now you are changing the scenerio in the middle of the debate. Now you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. That's not what the discussion is about right now.


Don Cardi

Nonsense. I don't care if she danced the hootchie-kootchie buck naked on the bar, it does not give sexual consent and is NOT a mitigating circumstance.

Mitigating circumstance :

She kills the bastard while he is forcing himself on her, raping her, sexually attacking her.

Her being a slut does not constitute Justifiable Rape. That's what you are trying to say here and there's no such thing!

Him raping her and forcing himself on her and her killing him while he is attacking her is Justifiable Homicide! That would be a cause for mitigating circumstances.


Don Cardi