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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132058
10/10/05 05:35 PM
10/10/05 05:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Posts: 770
UK
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SB Is Bush supporting torture? The Senate vote 90-9 to ban torture by troops. Bush wants to veto it so I'd say he does support torture. What would be the downside of passing such a law? For us Westerners, none. Tough luck on any army detainees though.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132065
10/11/05 06:01 AM
10/11/05 06:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Patrick What if a suspected terrorist is taken in and tortured, but is later found innocent in court? Then I guess Dubya would probably say something along the lines of: "We are deeply sorry at the misfortune suffered by those detainees later found to be innocent. Now, watch this drive!"
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132066
10/11/05 06:26 AM
10/11/05 06:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
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The Ravenite Social Club
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Now this is where our leaders are irresponsible, and play politics with the well being of our soldiers and our nation : >>"The amendment is attached to the $440 billion ($247 billion) defence spending bill and if Mr Bush vetoes the amendment, he would have to veto the entire bill. That would leave America's armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan short of cash as early as the middle of next month."<< By attaching this ammendment to the defense spending bill, our political leaders are putting the well being and survival of our soldiers, and our country, in harms way for their own political agendas. This should have been treated as a seperate bill. This way if the issue of torture gets tied up in political protocol, as it will, it would not affect the needed monies that would go to our soldiers and the overall defense of our nation. Now a whole defense bill, one that could provide the needed monies for our troops, will get delayed because of a seperate issue that IMO has nothing to do with providing funds for the troops during a war. Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132070
10/11/05 12:26 PM
10/11/05 12:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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Originally posted by Nice Guy Eddie: [quote]Originally posted by Patrick: [b] [quote]Originally posted by The Iceman: [b] I support Bush vetoing this bill. So you support people being tortured? [/b][/quote]Hell yeah!! Can I be the guy to inflict it? [/b][/quote]No, I'll get to be the one and you are gonna get it! :p
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132071
10/11/05 12:33 PM
10/11/05 12:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Underboss
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Don Smitty I wonder if the terrorists are also trying to have laws passed that would protect our soldiers and people from torture and beheadings? So we should lower ourselves to their inhumane level?
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132074
10/11/05 01:06 PM
10/11/05 01:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Don Smitty When you fight an animal, sometimes you have to think like the enemy in order to win... And act like animals to? You may be quite willing to become an inhuman, vile terrorist in the misguided belief that this will help us to "beat" them. But if we become them, they have won. Instead we fought a compassionate war and that's what has gotten so many of the soldiers killed. Anyone who uses the phrase "compassionate war" apparently without irony is - how can I put this kindly - not on the same page as someone who realizes what a war actually is. Politicians should not fight a war. Didn't we learn that with Vietnam? Let the generals fight the war.
Politicians are responsible for foreign policy and for the conduct of the state in foreign affairs. Terrorists are not human beings, they are animals, and they don't deserve any rights.
It is sometimes because they are treated like animals and accorded no rights that people become terrorists in the first place. Nothing is gained and much of our own humanity is lost in torturing them.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132075
10/11/05 01:12 PM
10/11/05 01:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
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The Ravenite Social Club
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[QUOTE][b] Terrorists are not human beings, they are animals, and they don't deserve any rights.
It is sometimes because they are treated like animals and accorded no rights that people become terrorists in the first place. [/b] Yeah ok. Usama Bin Laden was treated like an animal and accorded no rights and that is why he became a terrorist. :rolleyes: Or maybe the real reason is that sometimes they are brought up and raised like animals. Raised to hate and to become terrorists. There is no excuse in the world that one can make for a terrorist. "They're animals anyway. So let them lose their souls." Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132076
10/11/05 01:29 PM
10/11/05 01:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,893 The 5th circle of hell
Don Smitty
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Posts: 2,893
The 5th circle of hell
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Originally posted by The Dr. who fixed Lucy: [quote]Don Smitty [QUOTE][b]Instead we fought a compassionate war and that's what has gotten so many of the soldiers killed. Anyone who uses the phrase "compassionate war" apparently without irony is - how can I put this kindly - not on the same page as someone who realizes what a war actually is. Politicians should not fight a war. Didn't we learn that with Vietnam? Let the generals fight the war.
Politicians are responsible for foreign policy and for the conduct of the state in foreign affairs. [/b][/quote]I was quoting the 2004 democratic presidential candidate. Kerrys words. His idea of fighting a war was to fight a compassionate war and the democratic senators are following his lead. These scumbag terrorists hide inside of mosques, shoot at us from the places that they claim to be holy and religious, and our soldiers are not allowed to fire back because it is a mosque. It is not the correct thing to do. :rolleyes: That's a politicians way of fighting a war. Generals should be allowed to fight a war the way a war should be fought. Based on what's going on inside the war zone and what situasion they face at the moment in a war zone. Not have some rich bastard sitting in Washington deciding how the general should command his troops. As DC said, was Bin Laden treated badly as a child? He was rich and had everything in the world. They are all just sick bastards that have no place in the world. If it takes torture of a terrorist to save our world, then I say torture a terrorist. DS
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132077
10/11/05 02:42 PM
10/11/05 02:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Underboss
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Don Cardi "They're animals anyway. So let them lose their souls."
Interesting choice of words ... Don Smitty our soldiers are not allowed to fire back because it is a mosque. It is not the correct thing to do. You're right. That is a pretty dumb tactic. But it has nothing to do with torture, which is an humanitarian issue, not a tactical one. If it takes torture of a terrorist to save our world, then I say torture a terrorist That's a very convenient but rather unlikely scenario. Of course if the whole world really were at stake, then surely the torture of any one person - even the heroic George Duyba Bush - would be morally justified to save the lives of everyone on the planet.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132078
10/11/05 02:51 PM
10/11/05 02:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 138
Eustachius Brown
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Made Member
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Posts: 138
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Originally posted by MaryCas: play Christian rock and gangster rap I'm pretty sure that would drive 90% of the world population insane regardless of race and religion EB
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132079
10/11/05 07:10 PM
10/11/05 07:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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First Congress bans the assassination of foreign leaders. Now they want stop us from torturing captured enemy combatants for intelligence information. Wow. No wonders we have things like 9/11 happening. Let's just tie our other hand behind our back as long as we're at it, since we're not willing to play dirty enough with the enemy, I guess we'll take the moral high ground and REALLY play with a handicap. Kudos to President Bush for having the sense to veto this incredibly stupid legislation. And what if it had passed? If a army officer who tortured an enemy combatant against the law and found out the site of a horde of suicide bombers in a mosque, or undercovered plans to attack US territory, would congress then force him to be prosecuted for breaking the law, despite saving potentially hundreds of lives? As someone already said, I wonder why the terrorists aren't passing anti-beheading laws. As far as I'm concerned, if you capture an enemy combatant, feel free to go Rodney King on him, or any other suitable methods of exactracting information. Thank you. Best, Double-J
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132080
10/12/05 01:52 AM
10/12/05 01:52 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770 UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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Double-J As someone already said, I wonder why the terrorists aren't passing anti-beheading laws Well for a start, they don't have a legislature.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132083
10/12/05 10:14 AM
10/12/05 10:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543 Gateshead, UK
Capo de La Cosa Nostra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543
Gateshead, UK
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Originally posted by The Iceman: But these prisoners are not people IMHO they're monsters without any redeeming qualities. So was Richard Kuklinski. Let's all take a step back. The things people are questioning shouldn't even be asked in the first place; truth is, we are in a bit of a political and social crisis at the moment, and nobody seems to know what to do about it. Never mind PoWs. What about the people we should be caring about? The soldiers who are risking their lives every second they are in Iraq. I'm against torturing humans; animals against our cause? Yeah, I agree. But to torture is to shed our humane skin and reveal the primitive, immoral nastiness which we can share with animals. What sets us apart on this Earth is morality, and the freedom to choose to uphold that. Knowing you can and choosing not to (that can apply to anything, really) gains respect, self-honesty and self-contentness. The way we're going about things isn't solving anything, neither for ourselves or anybody else. Kicking a terrorist all over may make one feel happy, or make one feel happy to hear about it. Some of the people condoning such violence would, I suspect, run a fucking mile if they were offered the chance to kick the same terrorist's teeth out themselves; they really would. Not everybody, however. Anyway, kicking a terrorist all over, or attaching electric wires to his genitals, or something (I don't know how they work it) isn't going to solve the bigger problem. So why do it? Is it our good old "eye for an eye" policy? If that was the case, then go all the way and let's start beheading people, and quick. As it is, it seems, to me, little more than childish "well they did it first" behaviour that I left behind in primary school. Or kindergarten, if that went over your head. Thanks for reading, Mick
...dot com bold typeface rhetoric. You go clickety click and get your head split. 'The hell you look like on a message board Discussing whether or not the Brother is hardcore?
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Re: Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt
#132084
10/12/05 10:19 AM
10/12/05 10:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
Lavinia from Italy
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Originally posted by Capo de La Cosa Nostra: Anyway, kicking a terrorist all over, or attaching electric wires to his genitals, or something (I don't know how they work it) isn't going to solve the bigger problem. So why do it? Is it our good old "eye for an eye" policy? If that was the case, then go all the way and let's start beheading people, and quick. As it is, it seems, to me, little more than childish "well they did it first" behaviour that I left behind in primary school. Or kindergarten, if that went over your head.
The more I read you, the more I admire you, Mick. You got brain. And talent.
I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be truth (Blanche/A streetcar named desire)
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