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The Smartest?...The Dumbest? #1087840
04/15/24 01:42 PM
04/15/24 01:42 PM
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NYMafia Offline OP
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In your opinion, who were the five smartest mobsters in U.S. history? And by the same token, who were the five dumbest mobsters in U.S. history?…thoughts, viewpoints?

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087842
04/15/24 02:28 PM
04/15/24 02:28 PM
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RushStreet Offline
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The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.

I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.

Last edited by RushStreet; 04/15/24 02:30 PM.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087843
04/15/24 02:35 PM
04/15/24 02:35 PM
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faffy444 Offline
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in no particular order, FRANK COSTELLO, CARLO GAMBINO, TONY ACCARDO, TOMMY LUCCHESE, and JACK TOCCO.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: faffy444] #1087846
04/15/24 03:34 PM
04/15/24 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by faffy444
in no particular order, FRANK COSTELLO, CARLO GAMBINO, TONY ACCARDO, TOMMY LUCCHESE, and JACK TOCCO.


IMO, Faffy, these are 5 excellent choices for the smartest.

But who would be your 5 choices for the dumbest? Lol

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087847
04/15/24 04:07 PM
04/15/24 04:07 PM
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Big_Tuna93 Offline
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Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last

Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Big_Tuna93] #1087849
04/15/24 04:16 PM
04/15/24 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Big_Tuna93
Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last

Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.


Another set of good choices. IMO, the 5 you listed as the smartest gotta be in the running. And the 5 you picked as the dumbest also fit the bill nicely.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: RushStreet] #1087850
04/15/24 04:17 PM
04/15/24 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RushStreet
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.

I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.


Rush, you named Vena. Now give us another 4 of who you rank as the smartest. Then list the 5, who in your view, were the dumbest, ok.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087851
04/15/24 04:22 PM
04/15/24 04:22 PM
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faffy444 Offline
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the dumbest ????? far too many to choose from.take your pick's

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: faffy444] #1087854
04/15/24 04:44 PM
04/15/24 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by faffy444
the dumbest ????? far too many to choose from.take your pick's


LOL....true! I can't argue with you there.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087864
04/15/24 06:20 PM
04/15/24 06:20 PM
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naples,italy
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The dumbest John Tronolone of Cleveland.

In 1989, Tronolone became the only Mafia boss to have the distinction of being arrested in a hand-to-hand undercover transaction by local law enforcement. He accepted allegedly stolen jewelry from Lt. Dave Green, an undercover Broward County deputy in exchange for bookmaking and loan sharking debts. Green was forced to wear a disguise because Tronolone knew his real identity.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: faffy444] #1087912
04/15/24 10:02 PM
04/15/24 10:02 PM
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JCrusher Offline
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Originally Posted by faffy444
the dumbest ????? far too many to choose from.take your pick's

. Very True lol

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087915
04/15/24 10:58 PM
04/15/24 10:58 PM
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I’ll go Luciano, gambino, gagliano, costello and I will say Benny Lombardo as I think something happened in the Genovese family after Vito and assuming Lombardo was the boss for that time period I think that boss set them up for how elusive they are today. I generally picked bosses who navigated crazy times and largely came away unscathed both from the law and the street. Impressive feat

Dumbest decisions that come to mind: gotti/gravano/decicco killing Paul, Genovese trying to kill Costello, Joe bonanno releasing a book telling the fbi how things worked, Joe Colombo starting a political movement and being a producer on the godfather, Michael mancuso attacking shelved members at a funeral. Most of these are smart people doing stupid things but in the grand scheme completely idiotic in the history of the mob.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1087921
04/16/24 03:23 AM
04/16/24 03:23 AM
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The best website about global organized crime & the Mafia: http://www.gangstersinc.org - Since 2001 - Want to write for us? Drop me a DM/mail!
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Big_Tuna93] #1087946
04/16/24 01:43 PM
04/16/24 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Big_Tuna93
Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last

Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.



Pretty good list. I concur with most you listed.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: RushStreet] #1087965
04/16/24 04:34 PM
04/16/24 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RushStreet
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.

I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.


Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Big_Tuna93] #1087966
04/16/24 04:36 PM
04/16/24 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Big_Tuna93
Originally Posted by RushStreet
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.

I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.


Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.


LOL I was being sarcastic.

On the other hand, Albie is a smart boss. I mean look at him, he has never done serious time after all these years. Its amazing really.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: RushStreet] #1087967
04/16/24 04:40 PM
04/16/24 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RushStreet
Originally Posted by Big_Tuna93
Originally Posted by RushStreet
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.

I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.


Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.


LOL I was being sarcastic.

On the other hand, Albie is a smart boss. I mean look at him, he has never done serious time after all these years. Its amazing really.


Nicely put, BT.

I respect everybody's opinion, and we are all entitled to pick whom we feel is best suited for this. But, IMPO, Vena couldn't shine the shoes of the men I'm thinking of (and those of the men who other posters have listed here in this thread.)

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088210
04/19/24 05:41 AM
04/19/24 05:41 AM
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AMONG THE SMARTEST —- I could name hundreds of fellas, both well-known and little-known, (from a variety of cities) who fall into this category. But here’s a very short, quick list off the top of my head;

New York, NY
Salvatore (Charlie Lucky) Lucania - because he was the architect
Francesco (Frank Costello) Castiglia
Giuseppe (Joe Adonis) Doto
Gerardo (Jerry) Catena
Gaetano (Toddo Marino) Maiorano

NY’s Jewish Mob:
Meyer (The Little Man) Lansky
Benjamin (Benny) Levine
Samuel (Sammy the Jew) Jacobson

NY's Irish Mob:
Edward (Eddie) McGrath

Carlo (Don Carlo) Gambino
Paolo (Paul) Gambino
Ettore (Terry) Zappi
Joseph N. Gallo

Giuseppe (Joe) Profaci
Giuseppe (Joe Malyok) Magliocco
Enrico (Harry) Fontana

Gaetano (Tommy) Gagliano
Gaetano (Tommy Brown) Lucchese
Joseph (Joe Palisades) Rosato
Joseph (Joey Narrow) Laratro

Giuseppe (Joe Bananas) Bonanno
Francesco (Frankie Carroll) Garofalo

Tampa, FL
Santo Trafficante Jr.

Chicago, IL
Felice (Paul the Waiter) DeLucia
Anthony (Joe Batters) Accordo

Detroit, MI
Joseph (Joe Z) Zerilli
Guglielmo (Black Bill) Tocco

Kansas City, MO
Giuseppe (Joe) Cusumano
Guiseppe (Joe) Filardo

San Francisco, CA
James (Jimmy the Hat) Lanza


AMONG THE DUMBEST —- Basically the “dumbest” list is never ending. But off the top of my head;

John Gotti Sr.
Salvatore (Sammy) Gravano
Vittorio (Little Vic) Amuso
Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso
Carmine (The Snake) Persico
Alphonse (Allie Boy) Persico
Gennaro (Jerry Lang) Langella
John (Sonny) Franzese
Nicodemo (Little Nicky) Scarfo
Carmine (Lilo) Galante
Philip (Rusty) Rastelli
Joseph (Fat Joey) Massino
Samuel (Mooney) Giancana
etc., etc., etc.

Note: My criteria in determining the winners from the losers is quite simple; 1) Did you made a lot of money in your chosen "profession" ? 2) Did you better your life, and that of your family, by setting them up with generational wealth, gave them an education, and elevated future generations for a better life? 3) Were you able to avoid serving prison time, or, in the alternative, served very little time behind bars? 4) Were you able to enjoy your wealth and did you die in your own bed with your shoes off?





Last edited by NYMafia; 04/19/24 05:42 AM.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088294
04/19/24 08:35 PM
04/19/24 08:35 PM
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One more I forget, Sebastian (John) LaRocca - Pittsburgh, PA

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088295
04/19/24 08:51 PM
04/19/24 08:51 PM
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Giacalone Offline
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A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over

Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions


But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way
Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Giacalone] #1088302
04/19/24 09:08 PM
04/19/24 09:08 PM
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Hollander Offline
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Originally Posted by Giacalone
A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over

Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions


Theories have long circulated about Jews' talent for numbers, even without any education.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Hollander] #1088303
04/19/24 09:17 PM
04/19/24 09:17 PM
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Giacalone Offline
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Originally Posted by Hollander
Originally Posted by Giacalone
A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over

Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions


Theories have long circulated about Jews' talent for numbers, even without any education.


Genetically, those guys are blessed


But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way
Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088323
04/19/24 11:44 PM
04/19/24 11:44 PM
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DiLorenzo Offline
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Google boy !!!

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088327
04/20/24 03:46 AM
04/20/24 03:46 AM
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Mob guys, just like regular folks, can often be a dichotomy.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088418
04/21/24 03:13 PM
04/21/24 03:13 PM
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Hollander Offline
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Originally Posted by NYMafia
Mob guys, just like regular folks, can often be a dichotomy.


One of the Top mafiosi in Palermo is a surgeon.



"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Hollander] #1088463
04/21/24 07:09 PM
04/21/24 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hollander
Originally Posted by NYMafia
Mob guys, just like regular folks, can often be a dichotomy.


One of the Top mafiosi in Palermo is a surgeon.




This is so true. The Mafia has had doctors, lawyers, architects, clergymen, politicians, etc., etc., in their ranks through the years.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088465
04/21/24 07:29 PM
04/21/24 07:29 PM
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Yes it is alleged that even Andreotti was a made member.

Since 1945 he sat in the Italian parliament. He participated in 33 governments, serving as Prime Minister seven times.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Hollander] #1088467
04/21/24 07:42 PM
04/21/24 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hollander
Yes it is alleged that even Andreotti was a made member.

Since 1945 he sat in the Italian parliament. He participated in 33 governments, serving as Prime Minister seven times.


I would not be surprised to find out that he was.

Another was a top Sicilian-based politician named Bernardo Mattarella. He was born in the seaside town of Castellammare del Golfo, and was a boyhood friend and classmate of Joe Bonanno and other Castellammarese-born mafiosi who later immigrated to America. In fact, when Joe Bonanno made a trip to Sicily many years later, Mattarella made it his business to actually meet Bonanno on the tarmac and welcome his old friend back home as Joe and his entourage stepped off the plane.

Although never officially proven, Mattarella was always widely believed to be a fully "initiated" member of the historic Castellammarese Mafia clan.

Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: NYMafia] #1088469
04/21/24 08:00 PM
04/21/24 08:00 PM
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Yep his son Sergio Mattarella is the current President of Italy haha..


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest? [Re: Hollander] #1088470
04/21/24 08:03 PM
04/21/24 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Hollander
Yep his son Sergio Mattarella is the current President of Italy haha..


Exactly!! lol

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