In your opinion, who were the five smartest mobsters in U.S. history? And by the same token, who were the five dumbest mobsters in U.S. history?…thoughts, viewpoints?
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.
I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.
Last edited by RushStreet; 04/15/2402:30 PM.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: NYMafia]
#1087843 04/15/2402:35 PM04/15/2402:35 PM
Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last
Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1087849 04/15/2404:16 PM04/15/2404:16 PM
Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last
Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.
Another set of good choices. IMO, the 5 you listed as the smartest gotta be in the running. And the 5 you picked as the dumbest also fit the bill nicely.
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.
I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.
Rush, you named Vena. Now give us another 4 of who you rank as the smartest. Then list the 5, who in your view, were the dumbest, ok.
In 1989, Tronolone became the only Mafia boss to have the distinction of being arrested in a hand-to-hand undercover transaction by local law enforcement. He accepted allegedly stolen jewelry from Lt. Dave Green, an undercover Broward County deputy in exchange for bookmaking and loan sharking debts. Green was forced to wear a disguise because Tronolone knew his real identity.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: faffy444]
#1087912 04/15/2410:02 PM04/15/2410:02 PM
I’ll go Luciano, gambino, gagliano, costello and I will say Benny Lombardo as I think something happened in the Genovese family after Vito and assuming Lombardo was the boss for that time period I think that boss set them up for how elusive they are today. I generally picked bosses who navigated crazy times and largely came away unscathed both from the law and the street. Impressive feat
Dumbest decisions that come to mind: gotti/gravano/decicco killing Paul, Genovese trying to kill Costello, Joe bonanno releasing a book telling the fbi how things worked, Joe Colombo starting a political movement and being a producer on the godfather, Michael mancuso attacking shelved members at a funeral. Most of these are smart people doing stupid things but in the grand scheme completely idiotic in the history of the mob.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: NYMafia]
#1087921 04/16/2403:23 AM04/16/2403:23 AM
Smartest: Accardo, Gambino, Costello, Joe Bonnano, and have to go Lucky as my last
Dumbest: John Gotti, Gaspipe (not sure if he counts, but certainly fits the dumb bill), Joey Massino, Carmine Persico, and I hate to use another Gotti but Pete Gotti. I believe he was legitimately mentally deficient.
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.
I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.
Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1087966 04/16/2404:36 PM04/16/2404:36 PM
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.
I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.
Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.
LOL I was being sarcastic.
On the other hand, Albie is a smart boss. I mean look at him, he has never done serious time after all these years. Its amazing really.
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: RushStreet]
#1087967 04/16/2404:40 PM04/16/2404:40 PM
The smartest mob guy has to come from Chicago. They by far have the fewest rats of any family and many more men who lived free lives conducting business than in a prison cell.
I say Albie Vena may in fact be the smartest boss who has ever walked the streets.
Rush, I'm not trying to be a prick, but just for conversation purposes, could you elaborate more on choosing Albie Vena? I don't want to speak for the entire forum, but I can almost guarantee you that nobody had Albie Vena on their bingo card for this. Again, I'm simply asking out of curiosity.
LOL I was being sarcastic.
On the other hand, Albie is a smart boss. I mean look at him, he has never done serious time after all these years. Its amazing really.
Nicely put, BT.
I respect everybody's opinion, and we are all entitled to pick whom we feel is best suited for this. But, IMPO, Vena couldn't shine the shoes of the men I'm thinking of (and those of the men who other posters have listed here in this thread.)
AMONG THE SMARTEST —- I could name hundreds of fellas, both well-known and little-known, (from a variety of cities) who fall into this category. But here’s a very short, quick list off the top of my head;
New York, NY Salvatore (Charlie Lucky) Lucania - because he was the architect Francesco (Frank Costello) Castiglia Giuseppe (Joe Adonis) Doto Gerardo (Jerry) Catena Gaetano (Toddo Marino) Maiorano
NY’s Jewish Mob: Meyer (The Little Man) Lansky Benjamin (Benny) Levine Samuel (Sammy the Jew) Jacobson
NY's Irish Mob: Edward (Eddie) McGrath
Carlo (Don Carlo) Gambino Paolo (Paul) Gambino Ettore (Terry) Zappi Joseph N. Gallo
Giuseppe (Joe) Profaci Giuseppe (Joe Malyok) Magliocco Enrico (Harry) Fontana
Gaetano (Tommy) Gagliano Gaetano (Tommy Brown) Lucchese Joseph (Joe Palisades) Rosato Joseph (Joey Narrow) Laratro
Giuseppe (Joe Bananas) Bonanno Francesco (Frankie Carroll) Garofalo — Tampa, FL Santo Trafficante Jr.
Chicago, IL Felice (Paul the Waiter) DeLucia Anthony (Joe Batters) Accordo
Detroit, MI Joseph (Joe Z) Zerilli Guglielmo (Black Bill) Tocco
Kansas City, MO Giuseppe (Joe) Cusumano Guiseppe (Joe) Filardo
San Francisco, CA James (Jimmy the Hat) Lanza
— AMONG THE DUMBEST —- Basically the “dumbest” list is never ending. But off the top of my head;
John Gotti Sr. Salvatore (Sammy) Gravano Vittorio (Little Vic) Amuso Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso Carmine (The Snake) Persico Alphonse (Allie Boy) Persico Gennaro (Jerry Lang) Langella John (Sonny) Franzese Nicodemo (Little Nicky) Scarfo Carmine (Lilo) Galante Philip (Rusty) Rastelli Joseph (Fat Joey) Massino Samuel (Mooney) Giancana etc., etc., etc.
Note: My criteria in determining the winners from the losers is quite simple; 1) Did you made a lot of money in your chosen "profession" ? 2) Did you better your life, and that of your family, by setting them up with generational wealth, gave them an education, and elevated future generations for a better life? 3) Were you able to avoid serving prison time, or, in the alternative, served very little time behind bars? 4) Were you able to enjoy your wealth and did you die in your own bed with your shoes off?
A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over
Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions
But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: Giacalone]
#1088302 04/19/2409:08 PM04/19/2409:08 PM
A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over
Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions
Theories have long circulated about Jews' talent for numbers, even without any education.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: Hollander]
#1088303 04/19/2409:17 PM04/19/2409:17 PM
A lot of guys are both smart and dumb. John Gotti and Sonny Franzese could both be incredibly street savvy, but they were also reckless like a motherfucker. Ego has a way of taking over
Smart guys: My vote goes to Jerry Catena (for the Italians) and Moe Dalitz (for the Jews). Lansky was another genius of course, but Dalitz could show his millions
Theories have long circulated about Jews' talent for numbers, even without any education.
Genetically, those guys are blessed
But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
Re: The Smartest?...The Dumbest?
[Re: NYMafia]
#1088323 04/19/2411:44 PM04/19/2411:44 PM
Yes it is alleged that even Andreotti was a made member.
Since 1945 he sat in the Italian parliament. He participated in 33 governments, serving as Prime Minister seven times.
I would not be surprised to find out that he was.
Another was a top Sicilian-based politician named Bernardo Mattarella. He was born in the seaside town of Castellammare del Golfo, and was a boyhood friend and classmate of Joe Bonanno and other Castellammarese-born mafiosi who later immigrated to America. In fact, when Joe Bonanno made a trip to Sicily many years later, Mattarella made it his business to actually meet Bonanno on the tarmac and welcome his old friend back home as Joe and his entourage stepped off the plane.
Although never officially proven, Mattarella was always widely believed to be a fully "initiated" member of the historic Castellammarese Mafia clan.
