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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: JCrusher]
#1077090
12/15/23 02:36 AM
12/15/23 02:36 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624 AZ
Turnbull
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Posts: 19,624
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[What did he actually gain by murdering Fredo? People being more terrified of him? Michael is a thoroughly reprehensible character. In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "This was the business he chose." Again there really is zero evidence that shows Fredo wanted to kill him Yes, If Ola had flat-out asked Fredo to help in the murder of his brother, Fredo would have said no. So, Ola played him--Michael was being tough on negotiations, they needed information, bla-bla-bla. But, Fredo just closed his eyes,,ears and mind to what was going to happen when Ola told him to open the drapes--especially since he was promised "there'd be something in it for me." :
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#1077117
12/15/23 08:26 AM
12/15/23 08:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
JCrusher
Underboss
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Joined: Feb 2010
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[What did he actually gain by murdering Fredo? People being more terrified of him? Michael is a thoroughly reprehensible character. In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "This was the business he chose." Again there really is zero evidence that shows Fredo wanted to kill him Yes, If Ola had flat-out asked Fredo to help in the murder of his brother, Fredo would have said no. So, Ola played him--Michael was being tough on negotiations, they needed information, bla-bla-bla. But, Fredo just closed his eyes,,ears and mind to what was going to happen when Ola told him to open the drapes--especially since he was promised "there'd be something in it for me." : . I think Fredo was just simply stupid. I don’t think he is capable of malice. Hell look at how he fumbled the gun in GF1. There really is no defense of what Mike did. Then we see how much it meant to Fredo that mike hugged him and “forgave”him and how he bonded with Anthony. I doubt you would see that if Fredo was wanting Mike dead
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#1077122
12/15/23 11:50 AM
12/15/23 11:50 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,469 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
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Posts: 1,469
No. Virginia
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In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. " This all runs back into the earliest conception of the movies, and into the novel. Michael is a rationalist - the mathematics professor - and the inheritor of what Coppola called Vito's "intelligence, cunning and coldness." He just does calculations in his head, and dishes out what's deserved, no matter who's on the other end of it. In the novel, Kay reflects that she loves that Michael is "always fair." Fairness can have a dark side - when crossed, a fair person can proceed completely without conscience in settling the score. That's Michael.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: mustachepete]
#1077141
12/15/23 03:25 PM
12/15/23 03:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
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In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. " This all runs back into the earliest conception of the movies, and into the novel. Michael is a rationalist - the mathematics professor - and the inheritor of what Coppola called Vito's "intelligence, cunning and coldness." He just does calculations in his head, and dishes out what's deserved, no matter who's on the other end of it. In the novel, Kay reflects that she loves that Michael is "always fair." Fairness can have a dark side - when crossed, a fair person can proceed completely without conscience in settling the score. That's Michael. . I mean I definitely wouldn’t call Mike fair lol. Maybe in his own mind but he did also kill women too. Whether they were in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn’t matter. Tom bluntly asked him “Do you want to wipe everyone out”? Mike tried to rationalize it as it being his enemies but it’s obvious he had gone way too far and murder had become a first resort. But again what did Mike gain by killing Fredo at that point? Besides guilty that would haunt him the rest of his life.
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Capri]
#1077166
12/16/23 01:04 AM
12/16/23 01:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
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Fredo traitor in the family betrayed his kid brother, Michael for personal gain arguably the Donship itself Fredo so coveted Take sides against the family second time even after warning
helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched. thinking Mike was going to jail. No bigger shot and respect than Don Fredo Corleone
There is no redeeming feature You are not wrong! even after.... But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever!
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#1077167
12/16/23 01:04 AM
12/16/23 01:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
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What did he actually gain by murdering Fredo? People being more terrified of him? Michael is a thoroughly reprehensible character. In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "This was the business he chose." Everyone - Barzini, Roth and others in “The business they've chosen” is a “reprehensible character.” Vito and Michael were thrust into it and sure became “reprehensible characters” too. They had to, for survival -- Kill or be Killed Michael showed understanding "mercy and forgiveness" to Fredo until Fredo's boathouse outburst Fredo unlike Michael no remorse no regret Just more anger, jealousy, resentment that Michael survived the Tahoe bedroom shooting and Michael was too smart to let anyone beat him – Roth, Senate committee and Fredo himself Nobody could “get rid of Mike” and the Donship, Fredo so coveted, Don Fredo Corleone, didn't eventuate Slipped away Fredo, to the bitter end "I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over!" and still “It ain't the way I wanted it!” even after Fredo was complicit in 1. Michael and Kay's bedroom machine gun sprayed, nearly resulting in Michael and Kay being killed 2. Michael's Senate hearing - indictment for perjury, at the very least
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#1077168
12/16/23 01:05 AM
12/16/23 01:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
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Again there really is zero evidence that shows Fredo wanted to kill him Yes, If Ola had flat-out asked Fredo to help in the murder of his brother, Fredo would have said no. So, Ola played him--Michael was being tough on negotiations, they needed information, bla-bla-bla. But, Fredo just closed his eyes,,ears and mind to what was going to happen when Ola told him to open the drapes--especially since he was promised "there'd be something in it for me.": Fredo's boathouse outburst cast doubt on Fredo's claim that Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit Extract: Given the years that Fredo brooded over getting stepped over,being relegated to menial duties in the Family,and basically being thought of as a joke,he finally just lost it andthe idea of helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched. I don't think that he would have had any more of a problem getting Mike killed,than Mike had about killing him. And yes,Fredo was a marshmallow,but helping someone else do the work is a whole nother story.
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: mustachepete]
#1077169
12/16/23 01:05 AM
12/16/23 01:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
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Was Michael bloodthirsty?Extract: Michael, like father like son and like Vito, negotiated first and used murder generally as a last resort, Michael's first choice was not murder. He's no different than his father
Khartoum and Hooker -- both were defenseless, truly innocent victims and I reckon, parallel could be drawn
The collateral damage is unfortunate, in the business they've chosen same as Don Ciccio's guards The Baptism massacre was devised by Vito's guidance and counsel, to be carried out by Michael after Vito died, leaving a murderous legacy for “never wanted this for you son” Thanks! Pop Anybody kinda rooting for Roth to beat Mike?Extract: On the other hand, Michael, who could have used violence or murder against Roth, didn't--he was negotiating for the Havana properties. Roth, on the other hand, set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if Kay was killed in the attack. Moral of story: No honor among thieves
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1078529
12/30/23 07:05 PM
12/30/23 07:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
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Was Michael bloodthirsty?[quote=Evita] Extract: Michael, like father like son and like Vito, negotiated first and used murder generally as a last resort, Michael's first choice was not murder. He's no different than his father Khartoum and Hooker -- both were defenseless, truly innocent victims and I reckon, parallel could be drawn The collateral damage is unfortunate, in the business they've chosen same as Don Ciccio's guards The Baptism massacre was devised by Vito's guidance and counsel, to be carried out by Michael after Vito died, leaving a murderous legacy for “never wanted this for you son” Thanks! Pop Anybody kinda rooting for Roth to beat Mike?Extract: On the other hand, Michael, who could have used violence or murder against Roth, didn't--he was negotiating for the Havana properties. Roth, on the other hand, set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if Kay was killed in the attack. Moral of story: No honor among thieves[/quote
] . Vito was much more respected and liked. I seriously doubt Roth would’ve attempted to make a move on him. He felt Vito was more honorable than Mike which is a fact. Mike was certainly bloodthirsty when getting what he wanted. He would kill women if necessary like we saw with the Geary situation and along with Tattaglia. Then of course the biggie is murdering your own brother
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1078555
12/30/23 10:32 PM
12/30/23 10:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
Trojan
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
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True Lou nobody trusted anyone and didn't care about the collateral damage be it were defenseless, truly innocent victims No honor among thieves
I reckon, comparing Vito and Michael is apples and oranges Vito's criminal world Michael's “legitimate” world Times have changed. It's not like the Old Days -- when we can do anything we want
I reckon, Vito the evil, ruthless, murderous original villain is seen through rose-colored glasses
As we debated in Criminality and legitimacy thread “He dispensed [his] “justice” to fellow Sicilians who shared his values and demanded friendship, loyalty and respect in return” always with a caveat 1. Killed Fanucci 2. Bandleader's signature or brains for his Godson's contract release 3. made Bonasera grovel when he insulted Vito by offering him money 4. Killed Khartoum for his Godson's Movie part 5. Killed, a senile, Don Ciccio living out his last days other side of the world no threat to the Corleones 6. Trusted Tessio set his son up to be murdered
We debate Fredo's murder but he did exactly the same and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed for personal gain arguably the Donship, Fredo so coveted, Don Fredo Corleone
Fredo unlike Michael no remorse no regret
Michael Oh! What a brother! showed understanding "mercy and forgiveness" to Fredo until Fredo's boathouse outburst, gave him a pass
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Trojan]
#1078556
12/30/23 10:41 PM
12/30/23 10:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,084
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True Lou nobody trusted anyone and didn't care about the collateral damage be it were defenseless, truly innocent victims No honor among thieves
I reckon, comparing Vito and Michael is apples and oranges Vito's criminal world Michael's “legitimate” world Times have changed. It's not like the Old Days -- when we can do anything we want
I reckon, Vito the evil, ruthless, murderous original villain is seen through rose-colored glasses
As we debated in Criminality and legitimacy thread “He dispensed [his] “justice” to fellow Sicilians who shared his values and demanded friendship, loyalty and respect in return” always with a caveat 1. Killed Fanucci 2. Bandleader's signature or brains for his Godson's contract release 3. made Bonasera grovel when he insulted Vito by offering him money 4. Killed Khartoum for his Godson's Movie part 5. Killed, a senile, Don Ciccio living out his last days other side of the world no threat to the Corleones 6. Trusted Tessio set his son up to be murdered
We debate Fredo's murder but he did exactly the same and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed for personal gain arguably the Donship, Fredo so coveted, Don Fredo Corleone
Fredo unlike Michael no remorse no regret
Michael Oh! What a brother! showed understanding "mercy and forgiveness" to Fredo until Fredo's boathouse outburst, gave him a pass
. Completely disagree. There really is no comparison between Mike and Vito. There also is no excuse for murdering his brother. Mike himself admitted that Fredo didn’t know they were trying to kill him. Look I understand it’s hard not to root for or excuse the evil acts of a main character I totally get it. However it’s simply the facts
Last edited by JCrusher; 12/30/23 10:44 PM.
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Trojan]
#1078579
12/31/23 01:02 AM
12/31/23 01:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
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Well put Evita Another Excellent movie-fact based analysis
Sure thing Lou “Tom, you're my brother, the only one I completely trust”!
Michael like father like son same as Vito, the enemies have to be wiped out
Vito was brutal indeed Murder, extortion, cold blooded violence, threat of lethal violence even in such simple business matter as the Bandleader's signature or brains for his Godson's contract release - comply with his “justice” or die and killing machine Luca, Vito's most valued friend
Also Michael could not provide fellow immigrants with favours and protection like Vito - always with a caveat "Some day and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me" - as Michael was a “legitimate” businessman
Exactly Evita Fredo was complicit in trying to get his brother killed for personal gain arguably the Donship, Fredo so coveted, Don Fredo Corleone and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed The intent was there
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Re: Fredo and Tom
[Re: Capri]
#1078649
12/31/23 07:41 PM
12/31/23 07:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
Trojan
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
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No one was more honorable, more respected and liked than Roth -- set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if women and children was killed And you're a great man, Mr. Roth
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