GangsterBB.NET


Funko Pop! Movies:
The Godfather 50th Anniversary Collectors Set -
3 Figure Set: Michael, Vito, Sonny

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 287 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Site Links
>Help Page
>More Smilies
>GBB on Facebook
>Job Saver

>Godfather Website
>Scarface Website
>Mario Puzo Website
NEW!
Active Member Birthdays
No birthdays today
Newest Members
TheGhost, Pumpkin, RussianCriminalWorld, JohnnyTheBat, Havana
10349 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
Irishman12 67,930
DE NIRO 44,945
J Geoff 31,286
Hollander 24,622
pizzaboy 23,296
SC 22,902
Turnbull 19,539
Mignon 19,066
Don Cardi 18,238
Sicilian Babe 17,300
plawrence 15,058
Forum Statistics
Forums21
Topics42,469
Posts1,061,510
Members10,349
Most Online1,100
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1076990
12/13/23 04:03 PM
12/13/23 04:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
Toodoped Offline OP
Murder Ink
Toodoped  Offline OP
Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
.....in addition, I already posted this in one of my previous threads on Chicago's early gangs and so for those who missed it, heres how the original Irish Mob looked like during the old days....

First Ward, Loop and South Halsted St, Chinatown, South Side and Near West Side - 1900 - 1920

Michael Cassius McDonald (First Ward political crime boss who operated from a four story building located next to City Hall) (member of the Trust/gambling commission) (died on August 8, 1907)

- George Murray (assistant for McDonald and the Trust)

- Hall Varnell (McDonald’s second in command)

- Mike Kenna (political ctime boss for McDonald and Varnell)

- John Coughlin (political ctime boss for McDonald and Varnell)

- James O’Leary (South Side rackets boss with headquarters at 4183 South Halsted and also at 6300 S Cottage Grove) (member of the Trust/gambling commission)

- John Ryan (top enforcer for McDonald and O’Leary)

- Dickie Dean (top enforcer for McDonald and O’Leary)

- John Condon (owner of Harlem racetrack)

- Tom McGinnis (Mike Kennas’s gambling operator)

- Patsy King (policy operator on the South Side)

- Charles Smith

- Harry Perry

- Bud White

- Patrick O’Malley (W Clark and Polk streets, Loop)

- Maurice Enright (union racketeer and enforcer for O’Malley) (killed February 1920)

- Thomas Enright

- Sonny Dunn

- Patrick Paddy Ryan (leader of the group known as the Valley gang and Enright’s lieutenant) (killed in June 1920)

-Danny Vallo (precinct captain for the 19th Ward and Ryan's second in command)

- Cornelius Con’Shea

- Walter Quinlan

- Mickey Norris (saloon owner and agent for Lime and Cement Teamsters Union)

- George Vogel

- John Nolan

- Pete Kusanski

- James Linden

- Harry Bartlett

- William McPadden

- Hughey McGovern

- Raymond Cassidy

- Frank Carpenter

- Frankie Pope

- Frankie Lake

- Terry Druggan

- Danny Stanton

This particular syndicate was Chicago’s oldest organized crime group that mostly included criminals from Irish heritage, followed by few Jewish, German and Italian racketeers, and this was Chicago’s original Irish Mob, not the latter one during Prohibition which was wrongfully labeled by the newspapermen at the time. In fact, these were Chicago’s first racketeers and political corruptors who formed the base for all future organized crime.

Michael Cassius McDonald was an Irishman born in 1839 in Niagara Falls, between Canada and the United States and lived together with his good mannered father Ed McDonald and mother Mary, two brothers and one sister. In 1854 McDonald moved to Chicago where he worked as a candy vendor on railroad cars and trains, while selling half-filled boxes of candy and fake jewelry to unsuspecting passengers. At the time guys like McDonald were known as “train butchers” and it is believed that McDonald was the inventor of the “prize package” swindle.

By 1863 McDonald was already a very wealthy guy and he was only 24 years old. He bought a residence in Bridgeport, in an Irish neighborhood. In those days Bridgeport was named as the “Terror District” which in fact was the place where McDonald received his nickname “King Mike”. In 1885, McDonald formed a bookmaking syndicate which controlled gambling at the Chicago and Indiana race tracks and some reports say that in just one season his syndicate alone profited to the extent of $900,000 which was a lot of money in those days.

During this time, that in an effort to overcome many reform activities, McDonald contributed lots of cash to many political figures and so he sort of “created” the first real corrupted political machine of Chicago which became known as "Mike McDonald’s Democrats". He built a four-story building which was placed next to Chicago’s City Hall, which in fact was a big gambling parlor at Clark and Monroe known as The Store and was reportedly the largest brothel and gambling house in Chicago.

Back in those days every big shot criminal had a desire to win respect also as a legitimate businessman and so one day McDonald purchased the Chicago Globe newspaper and also took over as manager of Chicago`s first elevated rail system, the Lake Street Line, which became known in gambling circles as “Mike`s Upstairs Railroad”.

By the early 1900’s, McDonald had an army of younger and more powerful notorious thieves, forgers, gambling operators, smugglers, corrupt aldermen and other associates of every nature. The most prominent of those was one big time gambler known as James “Big Jim” O’Leary, and two very powerful political crime bosses Michael Kenna and John Coughlin. They became his legacy and also became Chicago’s most high profile organized crime faces at the beginning of the 20th century.

James O'Leary was an Irishman born in 1869 in Chicago and his childhood was filled with shame because of the blame that his family carried over the Great Chicago Fire. O’Leary grew up among the South Sides slaughterhouses and later worked at the Union Stock Yards, where he acquired the nickname "Big Jim." He also began working for many gambling and saloon operators and made many connections which caught the eye of one of McDonald’s associates "Prince" Hal Varnell. During the mid 1880’s because of the threat of reforms, McDonald decided to expand his gambling operations around northwest Indiana and so he instructed Varnell to send O’Leary to act as their scout.

By the early 1900’s the big cash started falling into O’Leary’s pockets when he made a connection with the Santa Fe Railway which ran three “Gamblers Special” trains out to O’Leary’s gambling joint while the Western Union provided the wire services and with the protection of police officials like Nicholas Hunt, O’Leary became the rising star of illegal gambling in Chicago.

During that time O’Leary became the most prominent gambling boss in Chicago and so he opened another joint which became Chicago’s most prominent two-story gambling local at 4183 S. Halsted, which included a billiards room, several bowling alleys, a saloon, a barbershop, and a sauna. The name "O'Leary" was written in giant electric letters on the front door as a sign of his pride and the joint also had false partitions, tunnels, hidden passageways and reinforced doors. He also opened a branch of suburban shopping malls in Du Page County with the help of new contacts from different syndicates such as Mike Heitler and Jim Colosimo.

Michael Kenna and John Coughlin were born in the same shack at Polk and Sholto Sts. at the western edge of Connelly’s Patch. Kenna was born in 1858 and Coughlin was born in 1860 and both grew up in the same Irish Slum District .They went to the first Jones School at Harrison and Plymouth Court and to get to school they would have passed the Custom House Place Levee in the " Cheyenne " District every day, in those times perhaps the wickedest place in America.

Coughlin at the age of 15 left school and began working in a Turkish bathhouse at Clark St, rubbing down politicians and underworld figures. It was here he made some of the connections that would later propel him upward in First Ward Politics. The bathhouse was often visited by Varnell and McDonald and they became his mentors. Later Coughlin opened a bathhouse himself, where he gained the nickname “Bathhouse John”.

As a teenager, Kenna was a very quiet boy but very aggressive in the business sense, thus making connections with many madams, prostitutes and anyone who might come in handy. In his late teens Kenna also owned his own newsstand but later decided to leave Chicago and went to Colorado. Over there he worked as a circulation manager at Lake County Reville in Leadville. After few years Kenna came back to Chicago and opened his own saloon, which was visited by many politicians and with that Kenna got mixed in the world of politics. The hooking up with Coughlin made them the most infamous duo in Chicago’s politics.

The duo hung around at a saloon at 120 East Van Buren which was called the "Workingman’s Exchange" and it was a sort of a “home” to many Chicago racketeers, followed by a well disciplined army of voters on every Election Day. They even had a so-called defense fund that was headed by two lawyers who were always placed on retainer to immediately appear in court anytime if some of Kenna’s and Coughlin’s associates were arrested.

At first their territory, the Levee, occupied the blocks between Harrison and Polk, from Dearborn to Clark St, but later their operations were relocated between 19th and 22nd Streets. During the early 1900’s the Levee was now in the Second Ward and this troubled the two crooked aldermen and in order to regain control of the Levee, Kenna and Coughlin with the help of their supporters and the resistance from the unsatisfied residents, they proposed a redistricting ordinance that would return the Levee to the First Ward. The "New Levee," as it was called, now consisted over two hundred brothels with Kenna’s and Coughlin’s headquarters being the Frieberg’s Dance Hall which was a big prostitution house.

In 1903, McDonald gathered all leading political crime bosses, racketeers and gamblers and formed Chicago’s first underworld commission which became known as “The Trust”. This was in fact a so-called gambling combine, which included gambling bosses from all four sides of the city, meaning North, West South and all southern suburbs. For example, McDonald and Jim O’Leary controlled the First Ward, Loop, South Side and all southern suburbs, followed by Mont Tennes on the North/ West and the Gazzolo family together with Mike Heitler on the West Side. O’Leary was represented by McDonald’s successors and First Ward political bosses Kenna and Coughlin, while the Gazzolos and Heitler were represented by 19th Ward Alderman John Powers.

Kenna and Coughlin were also often seen in the company of Alderman Johnny Powers who in turn was also very important regarding the Italian voters. These guys were the main representatives at the time who were followed by numerous street bosses, such as Jim Colosimo, the Benvenutti bros, Patsy King and Sam Young.

Patsy King was a former Mississippi riverboat gambling operator who arrived in Chicago sometime during the late 19th century and became closely associated with McDonald’s syndicate on the South Side. Even though the policy game was a black man’s racket, legend goes that King was allegedly the one that devised the game and became closely associated with many African-American and Italian racketeers from the South Side. In 1903, King together with another one of Kenna’s underlings, Tom McGinnis, controlled the policy wheel companies called the ''The Union and the Phoenix'', which were headquartered at The Emporium.

By 1906, the so-called “Trust” broke apart and all hell broke loose, with dozens of bombs being unleashed around the city of Chicago. In 1907, Mike McDonald died of natural causes and later his “throne” was shared by McDonald’s protégés Kenna, Coughlin and O’Leary, the leading figures from the former “Trust”. In July 1907, John Condon’s residence on S Michigan Av was completely destroyed by a bomb, followed in August 1907, O'Leary's resort on S. Halsted was also bombed and later in 1908 his gambling place was bombed twice and each time he rebuilt. This situation became known as the infamous “Gambling Wars” that lasted until 1911.

One source stated that some of the bombings that occurred at the time were in fact thrown or planted by the owners themselves, so later they were able to collect the insurance. Frauds and schemes like these were very often used by many criminal ethnicities, and this was only “the tip if the iceberg”. For example that same year, the Empire Voting Machine won a $1,000,000 contract from the election commissioners but a scandal occurred after some of the investigators found out that McDonald’s associate John Condon and some of his associates were the largest stockholders in the company through some of their front men. This was probably one of the biggest schemes ever executed by the old Irish Mob.

Patrick O’Malley was another Irish racketeer and close associate of both Condon and O’Leary, who owned a saloon in the Loop area at corner of W Polk and S Clark streets. Few of O’Malley’s close associates were the Enright brothers, Maurice and Thomas, and also Simon O’Donnell and Sonny Dunn. Now these guys were probably few of the most ruthless enforcers in Chicago at the time, who completely opened the doors to the field of labor racketeering. This was a result from the gambling conflicts and government pressure over the gambling racket in Chicago at the time.

During the waning years of the Harrison administration 1913-14, the massive gambling operations and conflicts stabilized because Mont Tennes from the Northwest Side consolidated his holdings at the expense of his rivals and allies. Condon passed away in 1915 and O’Leary kept his old gambling parlor but also turned to other more legit businesses, which was a sign that this particular faction slowly began to lose its influence and power within Chicago’s underworld. This was the same time period when the Italian and Jewish syndicates from the South Side somehow “inherited” a large criminal empire.

In 1920 Robert E. Crowe was elected as state’s attorney and declared war on the gambling business and the bosses and so a “big haul” was made and O’Leary’s ancient stronghold and was closed for good. So Crowe’s campaign at the time shook the foundations of the Irish handbook empire in Chicago and spread panic through Chicago’s underworld, so some of the old bosses like O’Leary used the illegal schemes of the recently arrived law of Prohibition.

Story goes that O’Leary allegedly joined Torrio’s gang in the bootlegging ventures. That same year O'Leary, who had been delivering whiskey to Colosimo's Cafe under arrangement with Torrio, was also a suspect of being involved in the murder of Jim Colosimo. Despite his connection, there were no charges brought against him. But few weeks after Prohibition went into effect, federal agents discovered a large supply of liquor in O’Leary’s basement, although he produced a pharmacist`s license that he claimed allowed him to sell whiskey. But one not-too-sympathetic judge revoked that license and ordered the saloon shut down as a public nuisance.

Other younger remnants from the old Irish Mob, such as Enright and his gang of followers, continued to bring illegal income from the unions which they extorted, and so this particular crew was “formed” sometime during the mid 1910’s. For example the leader Patrick “Paddy” Ryan was a strong Irish lad who used to be involved in planting bombs during the infamous gambling wars and later became a protégé of Enright . But besides being a product of the South Side syndicates, still by the late 1910’s most of Ryan's taverns were located around the Near West Side in an area which back then was called the "Valley” and was known as Irish enclave, though surrounded also by Jewish and Italian population.

Ryan owned a saloon at 1403 S Halsted St and was also part owner together with his associate and brother-in-law Mickey Norris in another saloon at 1916 Halsted St. Norris was a business agent for the Lime and Cement Teamsters Union, and so Ryan and his gang were often used as labor sluggers and also slowly wedged their way into labor politics, like for example one of Ryan’s prime enforcers and partner in the labor field was Cornelius Con’Shea.

Another close and most valuable associate of Ryan was Danny Vallo who in turn was a prime connection to various gangs, including the Mafia from the Northwest Side. Vallo’s blood ties were possibly from Potenza, Basilicata and he worked as a precinct captain for the 19th Ward but he didn’t live in that area, which gives the impression that he probably had strong Mafia and Camorra contacts in that same ward. In 1919, Vallo managed to escape from the state’s attorney’s office while being under arrest on robbery charges, while that same year their associate George Vogel shot to death a police detective in one of Ryan’s saloons during a quarrel between members of the gang.

At beginning of the year 1920 and with the start of Prohibition, the gang managed to steal $162,000 worth of booze during a holdup in one wholesale liquor house but the problem was that they started bothering other bosses and began making trouble in different areas around the city. For example, it seems that Ryan’s boss Moss Enright was different than some of his mentors and predecessors, meaning he possibly despised the Italian faction from the South Side and created many problems for them and also the Irish racketeers that were closely associated with the Italians.

For example, Enright and his gang harassed Johnny Patton from the Burnham area who in turn was close associate of Jim Colosimo and the South Side Italian faction, followed by Mike Heitler who was also connected to the Italians through the prostitution business. In February 1920, Enright was eliminated by those same Italian racketeers who he despised the most and also tried to extort. Reports say that Enright received a lavish funeral that blocked the main streets of the city, and Ryan together with few of his gang members were honorary pallbearers.

So Ryan was the next one to go and just like in their own style, the Italians or the Colosimo syndicate possibly picked one of Ryan’s close associates John Nolan to finish the job. In June 1920, Ryan was murdered by his own gang and his “throne” was instantly taken by Vallo, who in time slowly managed to transfer most of the gang members on the Northwest Side, while some remained on the South. In fact, as they entered the new era of Prohibition, this gang also gave the “birth” to future bootleggers and racketeers such as Frankie Pope, Frankie Lake, Terry Druggan and Danny Stanton.


He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1077015
12/13/23 08:57 PM
12/13/23 08:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
H
Hollander Offline
Hollander  Offline
H

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
The highways, roads, and streets in 17th and 18th century England were fraught with danger. The transformation of the marketplace in London, and other large cities, affected the nature of criminal organization. The expansion of trade and commerce, the concentration of a large, casual labor force, and the emergence of leisure institutions produced more opportunities for crime. The abundance of consumer goods meant large numbers of people were carrying easily stolen objects of value such as scarves, linen, cheap jewelry, silks, and metal items. As the nexus for finance, commerce, government and law, London, and to a lesser extent other large cities such as Glasgow, Edenborough, York, and others attracted the nobility, the gentry, the skilled professionals, and the wealthy merchants – all of whom carried valuables and money.


As cities in the American colonies and the early republic grew in the 18th and early 19th centuries similar forces came into play, particularly in the major port cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Norfolk. As trade and commerce grew, particularly following the American Revolutionary War, the wealth and availability of consumer goods in these locations increased.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Hollander] #1077103
12/15/23 05:19 AM
12/15/23 05:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
Toodoped Offline OP
Murder Ink
Toodoped  Offline OP
Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
Originally Posted by Hollander
The highways, roads, and streets in 17th and 18th century England were fraught with danger. The transformation of the marketplace in London, and other large cities, affected the nature of criminal organization. The expansion of trade and commerce, the concentration of a large, casual labor force, and the emergence of leisure institutions produced more opportunities for crime. The abundance of consumer goods meant large numbers of people were carrying easily stolen objects of value such as scarves, linen, cheap jewelry, silks, and metal items. As the nexus for finance, commerce, government and law, London, and to a lesser extent other large cities such as Glasgow, Edenborough, York, and others attracted the nobility, the gentry, the skilled professionals, and the wealthy merchants – all of whom carried valuables and money.


As cities in the American colonies and the early republic grew in the 18th and early 19th centuries similar forces came into play, particularly in the major port cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Norfolk. As trade and commerce grew, particularly following the American Revolutionary War, the wealth and availability of consumer goods in these locations increased.


Im not sure but during the 1900's i think that US completely took the same law which previously or already existed in England regarding white slavery. I think Chicagos Harry Guzik's case (Jake's older brother) was the main reason for it, since the scandal even reached Washington DC at the time. Again, by a non-Italian lol


He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1077108
12/15/23 06:17 AM
12/15/23 06:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
H
Hollander Offline
Hollander  Offline
H

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
Today’s Masonic lodges in the U.S. have a largely benign public image, seen as a place for smalltown businessmen (the order is limited to men) to engage in social gatherings, networking, and opportunities for charity. But the group, with its secret symbols and handshakes, was not always so harmless.


The United States Masons (also known as Freemasons) originated in England and became a popular association for leading colonials after the first American lodge was founded in Boston in 1733. Masonic brothers pledged to support one another and provide sanctuary if needed. The fraternity embodied European Enlightenment ideals of liberty, autonomy, and God as envisioned by Deist philosophers as a Creator who largely left humanity alone.

Those theological views created friction with established Christian churches, particularly Catholics and Lutherans. While the Masons captured the allegiance of much of the early Republic’s elite, the group did fall under widespread suspicion. The William Morgan affair of 1826—when a former Mason broke ranks and promised to expose the group’s secrets—threatened its demise. Morgan was allegedly abducted and presumed killed by Masons, and the scandal proved a low point in the public image of the fraternal order.

The anti-Mason backlash grew. Abolitionists like John Brown railed against the often pro-slavery Masons. Prominent figures including John Quincy Adams, a former president and former Mason, and publisher Horace Greeley joined in the widespread castigation. Future president Millard Fillmore called Masonic orders nothing better than “organized treason.” In 1832, an anti-Masonic party ran a one-issue candidate for president. He captured Vermont’s electoral votes.

American Masons were not above engaging in controversial foreign adventures. In 1850 a contingent of American Masons and Mexican War veterans invaded Cuba to foment a rebellion against the Spanish crown. The group failed to gain a foothold and retreated after suffering heavy casualties. Its leaders were later tried in New Orleans for violating U.S. neutrality laws.

The group’s long-term fraternalism and secrecy has traditionally served as a vehicle of exclusion, not inclusion. Today, its reputation is buttressed by an affilation with the Shriners, a related fraternal group noted for its charity and health work. The Masons’ revolutionary and sometimes violent past now serves as a kind of historic footnote as the order established itself as a placid participant in the American social fabric. Even with its controversial past, it’s hard to imagine the Masonic order serving as a contemporary hotbed of violent insurrection.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1077118
12/15/23 08:36 AM
12/15/23 08:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,580
N
NYMafia Offline
NYMafia  Offline

N

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,580
To TD...

I think the best way to respond to what you said about the Irish gangs being the “benevolent teachers” “consultants” and “guiding hands” to the Italians, the Jews and any other ethnic organized crime groups is to consider this…

Just because the Irish (and the English before them,) had arrived so much earlier in the U.S., many decades “earlier,” than other ethnicities, and, quite naturally, some of whom got involved in crime as they established themselves in American life, doesn’t mean that they were the most powerful, nor the architects of what later became known as “traditional ”organized crime.

Yes, you can point to numerous instances in Chicago, Illinois, and all around the country for that matter where the Irish first settled and formed strongholds where they eventually rose to positions of power in what can be categorized as “organized crime.” This was as they also established themselves in the business world and the world of politics for that matter - but they weren’t the “granddaddy’s” and teachers, as you say, to the others.

That makes it sound like they first went out and created and established the “rackets” (which is completely untrue,) and then with open arms, rolled out the red carpet and welcomed the other ethnicities to join in the spoils by bringing them in, teaching them, and guiding them in the ways of the underworld…

In truth…nothing could be further from the truth!

If anything, the Irish (understandably so,) tried their best to smother and eliminate and destroy the other groups, all other groups, be they Italian, Jewish or otherwise from gaining control or a foothold over lucrative illicit rackets or making the headway the Irish were making in the “upper world.”

This was true even before alcohol bootlegging rackets became a major source of money and power. This dates back to “day one.”

Be it in the legitimate business world or the illegal business world, the Irish weren’t looking to cede even one inch of territory to the Italians or anybody else for that matter. To them, the Italians were considered less than the blacks, back then, whom they referred to as negroid or negroes (among many other less palatable terms.)

And THATS a fact!…every bit of it!

How do you think that the Italians first got labeled with the insulting monikers of WOP (without passport,) or DAGO (work for one day and let go,??) Or guineas, spaghetti snappers, greaseballs, etc? Who do you think gave them those labels and referred to them as such? It was the Irish and the English.

And these disparaging names were commonly used by the more educated and upper crust Irish set. Do you really think the uneducated blue collar irishmen and those gruff Irish thugs involved in street crime thought any differently? Or viewed the Italians any more benevolently than they’re better established brethren?…I doubt it.
-
We need look no further than your City of Chicago.

Dion (Dean) O’Banion, George (Bugs) Moran and all the others in their Irish Gang weren’t “friends” and “compatriots” to the Italians, nor did they view them as allies.

The Italians were considered their competition, and by extension, their enemies…thats another well-worn fact.

And at best, at times they may have worked out an “uneasy” alliance or “understanding” with those “spaghetti snappers.” But no way, no how, we’re the Irishmen gonna help the Italians better establish themselves…Thats why the Italian Mob eventually killed them all or drove them out of Chicago! Or they capitulated and eventually “allied” with the Italians.

Whats that old saying, “If you can’t beat em, then join em?”


I’m not gonna address every little nuance or “instance” that you mentioned where Irish “allowed” these other ethnic groups in, because it doesn’t affect what I said, nor matter to this conversation.

The bottom line is that the English and Irish didn’t establish or later teach the Italians or Jews, or anyone else for the matter, the rackets.
-

And truth be told, the Mafia elbowed their way into everything. Nobody opened the door or welcomed them in...whether it was New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago or anyplace else. Lastly, the Mafia has a legendary history of adapting themselves and establishing numerous rackets in many cities and countries, on several continents. They sense opportunities and then either create rackets or absorb rackets as opportunity allows.




Last edited by NYMafia; 12/15/23 03:45 PM.
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1077138
12/15/23 02:29 PM
12/15/23 02:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
H
Hollander Offline
Hollander  Offline
H

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
On a side note Dutch OC goes back to the VOC.

Already in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, Dutch ‘merchant capitalism’ was based on trading, shipping and finance, rather than on manufacturing or agriculture. Merchant capitalism included investments in highrisk ventures such as pioneering expeditions to the East Indies to engage in the spice trade.
These ventures were soon consolidated in the Dutch East India Company (VOC), which established the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, subsequently renamed the Amsterdam Bourse, in 1602. This was the first stock exchange to formally begin trading in securities. Trade and ship building also helped Rotterdam become Europe’s largest harbour (de Vries & van der Woude, 1997). Still today, the port of Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe, and until 2002 also functioned as the world’s busiest port, only later to be surpassed by ports in Singapore, Dubai and China. The trade and finance orientation of the Dutch, combined with their central geographical location on the North Sea amidst large European countries, a big harbour and an important airport, Schiphol, make the country attractive for legal as well as illegal trade and finance. Organised crime groups (hereafter OCGs) in the Netherlands have adjusted to the Dutch trading patterns and to the country’s multi-ethnicity.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: Toodoped] #1077153
12/15/23 06:25 PM
12/15/23 06:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
H
Hollander Offline
Hollander  Offline
H

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,622
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Originally Posted by Hollander
The highways, roads, and streets in 17th and 18th century England were fraught with danger. The transformation of the marketplace in London, and other large cities, affected the nature of criminal organization. The expansion of trade and commerce, the concentration of a large, casual labor force, and the emergence of leisure institutions produced more opportunities for crime. The abundance of consumer goods meant large numbers of people were carrying easily stolen objects of value such as scarves, linen, cheap jewelry, silks, and metal items. As the nexus for finance, commerce, government and law, London, and to a lesser extent other large cities such as Glasgow, Edenborough, York, and others attracted the nobility, the gentry, the skilled professionals, and the wealthy merchants – all of whom carried valuables and money.


As cities in the American colonies and the early republic grew in the 18th and early 19th centuries similar forces came into play, particularly in the major port cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Norfolk. As trade and commerce grew, particularly following the American Revolutionary War, the wealth and availability of consumer goods in these locations increased.


Im not sure but during the 1900's i think that US completely took the same law which previously or already existed in England regarding white slavery. I think Chicagos Harry Guzik's case (Jake's older brother) was the main reason for it, since the scandal even reached Washington DC at the time. Again, by a non-Italian lol


Always intrigued by the term "white slavery" lol, when was it first used?


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Is the Italian Mafia first sophisticated OC group? [Re: NYMafia] #1077568
12/21/23 03:17 PM
12/21/23 03:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
Toodoped Offline OP
Murder Ink
Toodoped  Offline OP
Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,804
Underground
Originally Posted by NYMafia
To TD...

I think the best way to respond to what you said about the Irish gangs being the “benevolent teachers” “consultants” and “guiding hands” to the Italians, the Jews and any other ethnic organized crime groups is to consider this…

Just because the Irish (and the English before them,) had arrived so much earlier in the U.S., many decades “earlier,” than other ethnicities, and, quite naturally, some of whom got involved in crime as they established themselves in American life, doesn’t mean that they were the most powerful, nor the architects of what later became known as “traditional ”organized crime.

Yes, you can point to numerous instances in Chicago, Illinois, and all around the country for that matter where the Irish first settled and formed strongholds where they eventually rose to positions of power in what can be categorized as “organized crime.” This was as they also established themselves in the business world and the world of politics for that matter - but they weren’t the “granddaddy’s” and teachers, as you say, to the others.



Legendary CN boss Joey Aiuppa was literally schooled by Irish mobster Jonh Moore aka Claude Maddox. William O'Donnell was one of the masterminds of the infamous Holywood extortion case in which Ricca ended up in jail and Nitto killed himself, while O'Donnell remained untouched. Wasnt Catena schooled by Abner Zwillman before entering many of the lucrative rackets and going up in the CN hierarchy? One of Chicago's most powerful capos Turk Torello was schooled by Fifke Corngold before entering Cosa Nostra. And there are countless other examples in which non-Italian associates acted as recruiters for CN members and sometimes even vouched for those same guys.
Originally Posted by NYMafia


That makes it sound like they first went out and created and established the “rackets” (which is completely untrue,) and then with open arms, rolled out the red carpet and welcomed the other ethnicities to join in the spoils by bringing them in, teaching them, and guiding them in the ways of the underworld…

In truth…nothing could be further from the truth!



I disagree. The Irish mob didnt "create" the rackets in the US, nor did the Italians, but instead the Irish established the base for all future OC in the US and they were the first to do it. Thats a fact. You can see that with a simple comparison between the Irish mob and Italian OC during the early 20th century. The Irish were at the top. Owney Madden retired sometime around the 1950s but Chicago's non-Ital faction brought him back to an extent. The Italians simply breached the borders of being more violent and eliminating everyone who stood in their way. When the Irish had their own internal conflict during the 1900's, they mostly bombed houses or joints with no people in it, but as i already said the Italians were different. Take Capone for example lol


Originally Posted by NYMafia


If anything, the Irish (understandably so,) tried their best to smother and eliminate and destroy the other groups, all other groups, be they Italian, Jewish or otherwise from gaining control or a foothold over lucrative illicit rackets or making the headway the Irish were making in the “upper world.”

This was true even before alcohol bootlegging rackets became a major source of money and power. This dates back to “day one.”

Be it in the legitimate business world or the illegal business world, the Irish weren’t looking to cede even one inch of territory to the Italians or anybody else for that matter. To them, the Italians were considered less than the blacks, back then, whom they referred to as negroid or negroes (among many other less palatable terms.)

And THATS a fact!…every bit of it!



Dont know about other cities but in Chicago was different since during the early 1900's the Irish controlled a gambling commission which also included Italian representatives, followed by African-American and Jewish reps. As I previously said, during the 1910's the Irish and the Italians were in alliance, both in illegal rackets and politics. There was never a racial problem in Chicago's underworld.

Originally Posted by NYMafia


How do you think that the Italians first got labeled with the insulting monikers of WOP (without passport,) or DAGO (work for one day and let go,??) Or guineas, spaghetti snappers, greaseballs, etc? Who do you think gave them those labels and referred to them as such? It was the Irish and the English.



Mostly the English and the German, not the Irish. During the late 19th and early 20th century the Irish were also considered a "second class" and as you already know, there are also many racial slurs regarding the Irish too.

Originally Posted by NYMafia

-
We need look no further than your City of Chicago.

Dion (Dean) O’Banion, George (Bugs) Moran and all the others in their Irish Gang weren’t “friends” and “compatriots” to the Italians, nor did they view them as allies.

The Italians were considered their competition, and by extension, their enemies…thats another well-worn fact.

And at best, at times they may have worked out an “uneasy” alliance or “understanding” with those “spaghetti snappers.” But no way, no how, we’re the Irishmen gonna help the Italians better establish themselves…Thats why the Italian Mob eventually killed them all or drove them out of Chicago! Or they capitulated and eventually “allied” with the Italians.

Whats that old saying, “If you can’t beat em, then join em?”



Now you are on my turf wink lol lol

First of all, the original Irish mob in Chicago "died" at the beginning of Prohibition and the so-called O'Banion gang wasnt Irish at all since O'Banion was the only Irish guy in that "alliance". Im saying that because O'Banion WAS in fact in alliance with other ethnic mobsters AND the old Chicago Mafia, especially with Mike Merlo and Joe Aiello and everyone in Chicago who was with the D'Aquila regime, against the Masseria group. Thats why he was killed by Yale and Pollaccia.

On the other hand, later we have Irish killers and money makers who worked with the Chicago Outfit, mainly because their connection already started since the days of Colosimo. And even AFTER Capone or decades later, we still have many Irish racketeers like Heeney, Moore, O'Donnell etc. who were literally considered "members" of the Chicago crime syndicate and were involved in many key rackets and also both political and union connections, and also answered directly to the CN bosses.

It was all "peace and love" LOL


He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Don Cardi, J Geoff, SC, Turnbull 

Powered by UBB.threads™