Very good point Liggio.

Another good point Liggio ,your on a roll !

where did anyone claim that the HA were behind all of this? aside from the most recent conflict over 'THE BOOK' 2022- cont' the HA during the majority of these wars were imprisoned after numerous investigations and played almost no part and took no sides. it wasnt until VITOS release where the MAFIA-HA-WOOLLEY alliance took hold 2012-2015. i mean all but 1 of the over 100 full patch members were in jail at one point.

i have pointed through an exhaustive re check of many past murders in montreal how some should not be listed as being specific to a particular war. some not all were murders of opportunity over unpaid debts, money, take over of rackets or territory but not as part of revenge or total control of the city. there have been several cases of mistaken identity and the wrong people being killed. there have been some where it has been alleged it is indeed the HA 'cleaning house' on some of its own associates. the hard part for everyone is that there has been a tendency to lump every single murder in mtl (or toronto for that matter) into one all encompassing war. this is what is causing alot of confusion i find. the hair trigger approach by some is to assume they are all linked, and all linked to a larger quebec vs ontario or sicilian vs calabrian or 'the great canadian mafia war' moniker. when more likely it is several conflicts, wars and disputes in granted a small area geographically (montreal to toronto corridor) with some cross over amongst criminal groups. its a dogs breakfast to sort out is what im driving at. so assume nothing when guys go down and the purpose or reason. it is gonna take much more time to get a real look behind the curtain. perhaps silvas cooperation will be the straw?

one example of media et al jumping to conclusions. and really they cant be blamed in this era of who gets the story first. rocco zito. zito was murdered in 2011 and the all the initial reports were that it was the sicilians fighting back against those 'ndrangheta usurpers from toronto. what a big hit against this respected senior member. and then...it turned out fairly quickly i recall that the murder was by his son-in-law and had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with any mafia affairs whatsoever. his son-in-law had been taking care of zito who was old, infirm and totally inactive in the 'ndrangheta world. zitos name likely still shows up in 'great canadian mafia war' lists polluting the internet along with many others.

my views on this are clear and i do enjoy the discussion and debate. i also appreciate how unlike past threads this has not digressed into typical online name calling. simply state yer case wait for a response reply etc. this is the way it should work. the situation is confusing i get that, trust me, and us online sleuths as said by others stand little chance in figuring most of this out. but we press on dont we. i liken following the milieu and mafia/oc in canada in general to reading about quantum mechanics. as soon as you've read about a theory its almost irrelevant or has changed or a new study, test or report has come to a new conclusion totally opposite of what one expected. thats what keeps us following along though i guess. say what you want about all this...it aint boring fellas.

I totally get your points Vito, and you are making a lot of sense. Everyone wants all of this to be so simple, when in reality it's extremely complex and complicated.

The Violi bros have long been suspected in the hits on Nicolo Rizzuto and Paolo Renda. At least they had a clear motive the murders of their father and uncles.

That Rocco Zito murder was as disappointing as the Frank Cali killing, turning out to be a personal matter. What a snooze. Nobody wants to see anyone get killed but mob hits are more intriguing than say someone getting murdered over insurance money, we can get enough of that on LifeTime channel.

Imagine Joe Massino is ultimately responsible for most of this mayhem when he flipped leading Vito Rizzuto to be jailed in the US. I guess he got his revenge for the Rizzutos breaking away from the Bonanno Family afterall.

The Violi's had nothing to do with those murders.

The sniper in the window thing was done so people think it came from them, but it did not.

Vito Cahill although I disagree with some of your points, as always , you have made a good argument. I agree that the media likes to rush to conclusions sometimes. But in general it works it's way out and they get it right. The Zito example is a perfect example. When I first heard of the murder it was natural to conclude some rival had him shot but it did not take long enough for his son-in- law to turn himself in. In my opinion it was resolved fairly quickly and do not see the point. Authors of books will make mistakes but in general I find Business or Blood to be an excellent book. Authors and journalists are privy to more information than we do. They often get information from taped conversations and other off the record information from law enforcement. Many of these mobsters or gangsters are often victims of surveillance. Meetings are recorded. I also exhausted my time to put together an argument.
The readers come to a conclusion and it may not be the same from one reader to another. But there has to be parameters, anyone can dismiss information and say there is no smoking gun. Leaders seldom get caught because they have others to do their dirty work.

To get back to the war.
The wars in Quebec is multi facade.

1- There is the Violi revenge of their father. The Violi's over the years have gained more status in the crime world and to say they didn't play any part in some of the murders is inconceivable.
2- x Cotroni members & drug traffickers were displeased under the Rizzuto regime and caused rebellion
3- HA took advantage of this rebellion
4- The Ndrangheta also seen this as an opportunity.to expand and gain access to more ports. This would make them more versatile for trafficking.
5- Sal Montagna also seen it as an opportunity to make inroads and regain lost investments for the Bonanno's
6-The street gangs wanting more power and territory.

Some criminologists for example Maria Mourani would question, who among these groups would end at the top of the food chain. The logical one, being the most powerful of them all is the Ndrangheta. That is the crux of her reasoning in the recent article she wrote.

The internal war in Quebec caused splits between Sicilians and Calabrian groups. For example the Arcuri's were rivals to fellow Sicilians such as the Rizzuto's. On the other hand you had Arcadi a Calabrian fighting along with the Rizzuto's. The two prevalent mafia's are either Sicilian or Calabrian and this is what causes the confusion.

I produced a mountain of evidence in the previous post, showing a large portion of Rizzuto rivals fraternizing with the Ndrangheta. It is obvious that individuals were seeking support and approval from the Ndrangheta. I can't see this evidence as being made up , most of it most likely came from police surveillance. The smoking gun argument is implied too easily. Montreal mafia leaders for example, never got caught for murder crimes because they never found a smoking gun. They have people to do their dirty work. Is one to believe they had nothing to do with it ? Furthermore , Montreal mafia point men that were sent to Ontario to look after some of their interests, were killed. Two Ndrangheta members killed by Panepinto ,a Rizzuto associate. What are we to say about that ? the Musitano's joining forces with the Rizzuto's there were casualties in that war too. Ndrangheta relatives also suffered casualties. Are we to dismiss that as well ?

I also enjoy these debates with you Vito and we kept it civil enough. LOL.

So Scalish, if the Violis had absolutely nothing to do with the murders (which I personally highly doubt) then who was behind the murders of Nicolo Rizzuto and Paolo Renda? Please tell us we would really love to know.

Hey Liggio, I really hate saying names but those murders were done by the Sal the Iron worker, Desjardins and Mirarchi peeps, also Nick Jr.

Oh I see. Well one of those guys are long gone anyway. But Ciment is right, the Violi name has been making a comeback in the underworld recently.

Bro here in Hamilton the Violi name has been big for a very long time. And I can say this from knowing him, Dom Violi is a gentleman.

We should not separate the people who made the decision from those the who executed some of the murders. Both played a part. Sal Montagna made several trips to Hamilton and Toronto. He mustered support from both. The decision was made in Ontario over a cup of tea LOL and the execution was carried out in Montreal.

Sal was the one looking for support though not Dom. Lmao cup of tea and espresso with a shot of bucca

I had one this morning warms you up good for the winter

Yes, I meant Sal.

Yes the espresso and a shot of bucca is much better. LOL

You guys keep asking the same old questions and I've answered them several times. You can ignore me all you want but VitoCahill has also answered and explained them. You want this Cosa Nostra vs Ndrangheta story to be true so bad you're ignoring the evidence we have and jumping to conclusions that support your Cosa Nostra vs Ndrangheta war story.

Paolo Renda asked and answered. Nicoloa Rizzuto Jr and Sr asked and answered. Musitano brothers asked and answered.

Everyone can keep it civil but at some point it gets exhausting when one side just isn't listening and ignoring the info we have available to us.

From what I can gather, they're not saying it was a Cosa Nostra vs Ndrangheta thing. They're saying that one of the conspirators behind the murders, Salvatore Montagna, was seeking support from Ndrangheta figures.

If we can conclude that Montagna was indeed moving heavily against the Mafia powers that be in Montreal then it's only sensible that the mob meetings surveillance caught him having was to try and further that agenda. At least that makes sense to me.

grazie per tua riposta , che bello!

thanks for the answer.

I like this post a lot. I agree....

Un proche de l’ex-tueur à gages Frédérick Silva assassiné au Mexique
https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/...frederick-silva-assassine-au-mexique.php

^^^^
https://x.com/felixseguin/status/1735024187989725419?s=46&t=ec5JjzW4kIbijwKywCiI0w

^^^^
Le bras droit d’un influent Hells est assassiné au Mexique
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2...-influent-hells-est-assassine-au-mexique

It shows how wide the HA network is, if they can order a killing in Mexico from Quebec.

^^^^
Un proche des Hells Angels et de l’ex-tueur à gage Frédérick Silva tué au Mexique
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvell...s-angels-frederick-silva-enquete-spvm-sq

^^^^
Quebecer with close ties to Hells Angels killed in Mexico
https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...se-ties-to-hells-angels-killed-in-mexico