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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072570
10/19/23 06:35 PM
10/19/23 06:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,479
Hollander
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There are a small number of similar criminal organizations operating in Italy. They are mostly based outside of Italy, or composed of non-Italians living in Italy, such as the Chinese, Russian, Georgian, Nigerian and Balkan crime groups including the Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Montenegrin and the Albanian mafia.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072581
10/19/23 07:35 PM
10/19/23 07:35 PM
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Liggio
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Oh here's another one, "bosses like Accardo, Gambino, Costello, and Trafficante are true bosses because they died in bed and not in prison unlike Gotti, Gigante, Persico, etc" This is also fucking ridiculous. For starters, those bosses died or became inactive before RICO, before idiots like Scarfo, Gotti, and Amuso brought so much grief to the mob, and before the government’s all-out assault on the mob. Gigante gets a pass because let's face it, his crazy act did keep him on the streets for decades, and he only got a lousy 12-year sentence in the end, which isn't shit when he went decades ordering murders and conducting numerous racketeering schemes.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072590
10/19/23 09:35 PM
10/19/23 09:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,860 Houston
Liggio
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: jace]
#1072645
10/20/23 12:01 PM
10/20/23 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,142
TheKillingJoke
Underboss
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I don't think any Greek mob ever really existed. Small groups yes, a mob no. In North America there has never been such a thing as a substantial Greek mob and it has definitely only been small crews like the ones in Astoria and Philly. In Europe on the other hand - operating from Greece and Cyprus - there definitely is Greek organized crime that's noteworthy enough to mention. There are more than a few organized crime networks operating from Athens that run protection rackets, loansharking, drugs...and that have infiltrated legal economies (Greek OC is highly known for its stakes in the shipping industry) and a lot money is laundered through major soccer teams. The Grigorakos clan used to be the most notorious name in the 90's and early 2000's, but after their downfall the biggest power was the conglomerate that was formed by the criminal organizations of Vassilis Stefanakos, Yiannis Skaftouros and Panagiotis Vlastos. In the past ten years there has been a big fallout. A number of other crime bosses have now taken over the power structure. In the last 10 years I think there have been about 40 major gangland hits in Greece (not counting the hits that happened on Greek soil due to conflicts within foreign criminal organizations from Kosovo/Albania, Serbia/Montenegro, Turkey and Georgia). There's also the so-called "Mylopotamos mafia" which operates from Athens, but whose members come from a certain region in Crete. They are active in the illegal European arms trade and run large cannabis farms on the island of Crete. Members of that organization have been detected in other European countries (a connected family for some time lived in a town close to where I live in Belgium). Moreover in Cyprus there's about 12 to 15 local crime families operating and many of them have been active for generations and have also infiltrated the legal economy. Two of those families formed a conglomerate and used to be very well known in the UK as well (specifically North London) where they were active in extortion, loansharking and heroin smuggling. A member of one of these families owns a well known nightclub in London. In Western Europe, Greek organized crime is definitely a thing. Of course not as huge as the Italian criminal organizations and probably not as endemic as the ones from Turkey, Serbia/Montenegro, Albania/Kosovo, the FSU states, UK, Ireland and the Netherlands either. But they're definitely big and far-reaching enough to count them in as a factor; probably on par with Corsican or maybe even Bulgarian organized crime in the way that they have a ton of influence on their local economies.
Last edited by TheKillingJoke; 10/20/23 12:02 PM.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Strax]
#1072653
10/20/23 02:39 PM
10/20/23 02:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,142
TheKillingJoke
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When it comes to Greek organized crime , its a very strange thing. It is country with a lot of ports and islands , yet with very weak organized crime when compared to other states that have exit to the sea ( Italy, Montenegro, Albania , Spain , Netherlands and so on). I wouldn't call it very weak. It's not as entrenched as it is in Italy and the Balkans and it's not as internationally widespread, but local organized crime groups have successfully muscled their way in a substantial part of the legitimate world. And investigative reporters who are getting close to exposing contacts between organized crime, officials, law enforcement and big businesses are frequently threatened or even assassinated (such as in the case of Giorgos Karavaiz). They don't have anything resembling a Cosa Nostra, Ndrangheta, Camorra or SCU with thousands of members each, but there are quite a number of organized crime networks with enough muscle at their disposal to hold quite a bit of influence in their respective sector. I'd say Spain doesn't have that much of a homegrown organized crime scene, except for smuggling groups in Galicia and Cadiz. The Galician smugglers' role is largely limited to transporting cocaine shipments from the Latin American cartels (usually the Colombians) to the organized crime groups in other parts of Europe. Their local political influence has diminished greatly compared to the 80's. There are a ton of major European criminal organizations that have property in Spain though; groups from Italy, the Balkans, UK, Ireland, Netherlands, France, the FSU as well as outlaw motorcycle groups all have operatives in Spain.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072655
10/20/23 03:21 PM
10/20/23 03:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,245 Balkans
Strax
Underboss
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What you said about Crete, true. I went to Greece 11 times. Once we were on holiday in Crete, got friendly with some locals there and they tried to sell me some guns, they were very open about it , told me how its pretty big thing there. I was pretty shocked , never saw anything illegal in Greece , but then when i was in Egypt , literally everyone offered me hashish , even in pharmacy lol
Last edited by Strax; 10/20/23 03:22 PM.
"A fish with his mouth closed never get's caught"
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072659
10/20/23 04:31 PM
10/20/23 04:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,479
Hollander
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Speaking of hashish.
The name "assassin" is commonly believed to be a mutation of the Arabic hashshshin (???????), which allegedly derives from the drug hashish that was said to be used by the group before going into battle. However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish. However, alcohol is not likely to have been the drug described, being totally prohibited by the Muslim faith. It is suggested by some writers that assassin simply means "followers of Al-Hassan" (or Hassan-i-Sabah, the Sheikh of Alamut)). Others suggest that since hashish-eaters were generally ostracized in the Middle Ages, the word "Hashshashin" had become a common synonym for "outlaws." So the attribution of Hassan's Ismaili sect with this term is not necessarily a clue for drug use. Some common accounts of their connection with hashish are that these "assassins" would take hashish before missions in order to calm themselves; others say that it helped to boost their strength, and turned them into madmen in battle. Yet other accounts state it was used in their initiation rites in order to show the neophyte the sensual pleasures awaiting him in the afterlife. The connection between their mysticism and that drug is not something subject to reliable or consistent historical accounts; this is not surprising given their secrecy and infamy.
The word Hashish (of probable Arabic origin) refers to resin collected from cannabis flowers. This could be the true drug of the Assassins as described by Marco Polo.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: RushStreet]
#1072662
10/20/23 05:21 PM
10/20/23 05:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 382
Big_Tuna93
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 382
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"Hes my homie"
Fuckin stupid word.
You're on quite a Richie Aprile kick lately.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072738
10/20/23 10:11 PM
10/20/23 10:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 349
eastsideofvan
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 349
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Stupid shit you wish people would stop saying regarding the Mafia or just organized crime in general. I'll go first, " You're not even Italian!" So you have to be Italian to be interested in this subject? You know how many non-Italian associates helped make this thing what it was/is? Some with even more clout than some made men? Even in Italy, big busts often involve a rainbow mix of criminals involved from all over the world. Or here's a similar one, "You're not even from Chicago!" As if somehow being from Chicago makes you the absolute authority on organized crime in Chicago. There's people not even from Chicago who probably know more about your own city than you do. Ridiculous. You are right - this is a definite fallacy. It's like saying you'd only want to be treated by a cancer doctor who had actually had cancer, rather than evaluating their abilities based on their education, experience or qualifications. You're either in the mafia or you're not and if you're not then it wouldn't matter if you're Italian, German, Pakistani or Japanese - you're just not in. And historically there would have been many Jewish men walking around that would know a lot more about it than you would, no matter how Italian you were. Agree 100%
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072746
10/21/23 04:01 AM
10/21/23 04:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
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Oh here's another one, "bosses like Accardo, Gambino, Costello, and Trafficante are true bosses because they died in bed and not in prison unlike Gotti, Gigante, Persico, etc" This is also fucking ridiculous. For starters, those bosses died or became inactive before RICO, So according to this, Accardo was "dead" or "inactive" before RICO? Lol Accardo died in 1992 as a free man and was active until his last breath. I think you are mixing stuff. Sounds like you come from across the street with those "nazi" statements which you place them as facts. And if you wanna go deeper in history, the term "Mafia" probably comes from Arabic word/words.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072750
10/21/23 06:45 AM
10/21/23 06:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,860 Houston
Liggio
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In his last 5 or 10 years alive, I highly doubt that Accardo was all that active. He took a step back, I personally believe that but it's not written in stone. And what about the others? Still, comparing present-day bosses to pre-RICO bosses are unfair comparisons, that's my fucking point. Lots of Sicilian dialect is rooted in Arabic, your fucking point? It's still primarily an Italian word and Chinese Mafia, Russian Mafia, Irish Mafia, just sounds fucking stupid and lazy when many other ethnic organizations have their own names, no need to lump every group under one name.
Last edited by Liggio; 10/21/23 06:48 AM.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072751
10/21/23 06:51 AM
10/21/23 06:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,758 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
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In his last 5 or 10 years alive, I highly doubt that Accardo was all that active. He took a step back. And what about the others? Still, comparing present-day bosses to pre-RICO bosses are unfair comparisons, that's my fucking point. Lots of Sicilian dialect is rooted in Arabic, your fucking point? It's still primarily an Italian word and Chinese Mafia, Russian Mafia, Irish Mafia, just sounds fucking stupid and lazy when many other ethnic organizations have their own names, no need to lump every group under one name. Lol back off. You have pics of DiFronzo, Carlisi and Accardo from the late 1980's attending a mob meeting and you also have members coming to Accardo during the early 90s Lol. And my point is that...according to your idea...the term "Mafia" applies for the Arabs, again according to your idea...since most of the Sicilian words are Arabic. There are also similarities between the Italians and Albanians in their language and last names and so the Albanians are also able to use the word Mafia right?! Lol
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072753
10/21/23 07:09 AM
10/21/23 07:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,860 Houston
Liggio
OP
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Houston
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Apparently I'm not the only one who feels that way, Jace was the first one to say he's tired of hearing Greek Mafia, Chinese Mafia, Russian Mafia, etc, and I agree with him! Accardo is an anomaly then. Still, my point is that it's unfair to compare pre-RICO bosses to present-day bosses and you keep using this Accardo guy, deviating from the point I'm making.
On the term Mafia: The word mafia originated in Sicily. The Sicilian noun mafiusu (in Italian: mafioso) roughly translates to mean "swagger", but can also be translated as "boldness, bravado". In reference to a man, mafiusu in 19th-century Sicily was ambiguous, signifying a bully, arrogant but also fearless, enterprising and proud, according to scholar Diego Gambetta. In reference to a woman, however, the feminine-form, "mafiusa", means a beautiful or attractive female. The Sicilian word mafie refers to the caves near Trapani and Marsala, which were often used as hiding places for refugees and criminals.
Sicily was once an Islamic emirate, therefore mafia might have Arabic roots. Possible Arabic roots of the word include:
ma?af? (????): exempted. In Islamic law, Jizya is the yearly tax imposed on non-Muslims residing in Muslim lands. Those who pay it are "exempted" from prosecution. mahy?? (?????): aggressive boasting, bragging marf?? (?????): rejected mu??f? (?????): safety, protection Ma??fir (?????): the name of an Arab tribe that ruled Palermo
But notice how the word Mafia has Arabic ROOTS, keyword roots, that doesn't make the word Mafia Arabic itself, it's still an Italian word. All of the above Arabic terms are just that, Arabic.
And I'll end this with a quote from Anti-Mafia prosecutor Giovanni Falcone: "While there was a time when people were reluctant to pronounce the word "Mafia" ... nowadays people have gone so far in the opposite direction that it has become an overused term ... I am no longer willing to accept the habit of speaking of the Mafia in descriptive and all-inclusive terms that make it possible to stack up phenomena that are indeed related to the field of organised crime but that have little or nothing in common with the Mafia."
Last edited by Liggio; 10/21/23 07:11 AM.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072762
10/21/23 07:30 AM
10/21/23 07:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,758 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
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Raimondo Gamur You just want so badly for everyone to be able to call themselves Mafia, like you feel left out or something if that doesn't happen lol. We must've offended you when we said that other ethnic criminal groups need to stop being called Mafia lmao. Sorry I hurt your brain "Ligle". lol lol
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Toodoped]
#1072764
10/21/23 07:39 AM
10/21/23 07:39 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,514
NYMafia
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,514
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Oh here's another one, "bosses like Accardo, Gambino, Costello, and Trafficante are true bosses because they died in bed and not in prison unlike Gotti, Gigante, Persico, etc" This is also fucking ridiculous. For starters, those bosses died or became inactive before RICO, So according to this, Accardo was "dead" or "inactive" before RICO? Lol Accardo died in 1992 as a free man and was active until his last breath. I think you are mixing stuff. Sounds like you come from across the street with those "nazi" statements which you place them as facts. And if you wanna go deeper in history, the term "Mafia" probably comes from Arabic word/words. TD, I suggest you don't waste your time and energy. This kid is lost in space 80% of the time and he spends the other 20% of it being derisive and contrary. (And I'm sure you're correct when you say he's "from across the street.") Its like trying to shovel shit against the tide with him....you're just not going anywhere with it. LOL
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: NYMafia]
#1072765
10/21/23 07:42 AM
10/21/23 07:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,758 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
Underboss
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Underground
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Oh here's another one, "bosses like Accardo, Gambino, Costello, and Trafficante are true bosses because they died in bed and not in prison unlike Gotti, Gigante, Persico, etc" This is also fucking ridiculous. For starters, those bosses died or became inactive before RICO, So according to this, Accardo was "dead" or "inactive" before RICO? Lol Accardo died in 1992 as a free man and was active until his last breath. I think you are mixing stuff. Sounds like you come from across the street with those "nazi" statements which you place them as facts. And if you wanna go deeper in history, the term "Mafia" probably comes from Arabic word/words. TD, I suggest you don't waste your time and energy. This kid is lost in space 80% of the time and he spends the other 20% of it being derisive and contrary. (And I'm sure you're correct when you say he's "from across the street.") Its like trying to shovel shit against the tide with him....you're just not going anywhere with it. LOL I agree and thanks bud. As I always say, I love the "ignore button" on this forum lol
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072796
10/21/23 03:29 PM
10/21/23 03:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,479
Hollander
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Joined: Mar 2016
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Still, Ma Afir and Mu Afat are two completely different words from the Italian word Mafia. I don't know, maybe there's an Arabian Ma Afir out there somewhere? The Sicilian language has been shaped by many years of foreign influence, occupation, and conquest. Unlike Italian, which is almost entirely Latin based, Sicilian has elements of Greek, Arabic, French, Catalan, and Spanish. The name 'Ndrangheta for example has Greek origins.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072802
10/21/23 03:55 PM
10/21/23 03:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,860 Houston
Liggio
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I get that the word itself has other origins, but the word in and of itself is Italian. There are words even throughout the English language that is rooted in Greek, Latin, etc, they have counterparts and derivatives if you will, in other languages, but they're still English words. Some people don't mind it, and are okay calling every criminal group out there Mafia, but others like myself are a bit put off when we hear Irish Mafia or Chinese Mafia. But call it whatever you want.
Last edited by Liggio; 10/21/23 04:30 PM.
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Liggio]
#1072843
10/21/23 06:54 PM
10/21/23 06:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 24,479
Hollander
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Joined: Mar 2016
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I get that the word itself has other origins, but the word in and of itself is Italian. There are words even throughout the English language that is rooted in Greek, Latin, etc, they have counterparts and derivatives if you will, in other languages, but they're still English words. Some people don't mind it, and are okay calling every criminal group out there Mafia, but others like myself are a bit put off when we hear Irish Mafia or Chinese Mafia. But call it whatever you want. That's true in dutch we find hebrew, german, french and english origins.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Things you wish people would stop saying
[Re: Hollander]
#1072865
10/21/23 11:41 PM
10/21/23 11:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
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And if you wanna go deeper in history, the term "Mafia" probably comes from Arabic word/words.
Yes, one explanation is that the name may refer to the Arab rulers who ruled Palermo in the Saracens era, namely the Ma Afir tribe. Another possible Arabic influence is Mu Afat. Mu means courage, Afat protecting the weak against the strong. Thats right @H and if we look at the word "mafia", it has also a plural form which is "mafias" ("mafie" in Italian or "mafir"" in Russian something like that). Italy has "Cosa Nostra" and it has NO plural version, I mean you cannot call it "cosa nostras" or "cosa nostri" lol, or the "camorra" for which you cannot have a Italian plural word for it like the "camorras" in English lol ( The declension of the noun Camorra is in singular genitive Camorra and in the plural nominative- the noun Camorra is declined with the declension endings. It does not form plurals). Maybe the Spanish also sometime use the word "camorras" but again there's no plural in Italian, and instead mainly you can call them families or clans under one of the previously mentioned criminal societies. They also have specific names for their ranks and you can rarely see some member calling other member a "mafioso" (Buschetta is probably the one who used it to easily describe the Sicilian organization to the government). The Camorra members call themselves "Camorristi", while the Sicilians use the term "men of honor" and the N'Drangheta clans are called "'Ndrine" or something like that and their whole membership is called "Andranghateia” and have specific ranks such as “crimine”. So my final point is that there are MANY "MAFIAS" out there, but there's ONLY ONE "Cosa Nostra", "Camorra" or "N'drangheta" or "Yakuza" (organization with old hierarchy) or "Russian Bratva" (same here), or the old American Jewish mob which received its seat on the Italian commission during one period with their rep Meyer Lansky etc. So how can we label the old Jewish mob with their seat on the American Cosa Nostra commission? A "Jewish Mafia", obviously because the term "mafia" has a plural version lol @Furio????
Last edited by Toodoped; 10/22/23 01:12 AM.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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