While it is common for an associate to move from one family to another, it is rare for made guys to switch families.

There's the case of Anthony Persiano who was made by the Philly family but has been previously inducted into another family. At least that's what was said during his induction ceremony by Philly which he actually bugged for the FBI.

There's also the case Joseph "Joe Cafe" DeSenna who was a Gambino and was then swapped with a Lucchese guy (whom I believe was Robert Vaccaro). I am not sure if they were swapped after or before their induction though.

Do you guys know more about this ?

Dont know about swapping made guys but there are more than few examples regarding guys switching families...Roselli started as a member of the LA fam but later switched his membership to the Chicago family....or Tony Pinelli who started in the Chicago family but later switched his membership to the LA fam...maybe im wrong but I also think one of the Aiello bros switched membership from Chicago to Milwaukee and later returned again to Chicago

As TD explained, it is quite common for members from one family, after relocating to another city in another state, to eventually "transfer" their memberships to the resident Family of the new state.

In fact, there is actually a rule (or was a rule,) that if you permanently move to the new state, you are required (by Cosa Nostra doctrine) to switch over after a six-month period.

Part-time guys, vacationers, temporary fellas living in another place....No! But if you move into that state permanently, it's required.

[But within the Five Families, that was extremely rare. It's only happened a few times.] Traditionally, you stay put within the Family you are "made" into...period!
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PS: Another steadfast rule, and one that was adamantly adhered to the letter, was that BEFORE you come into another territory to do business, whether illegal or legal, it was expected that the boss of your borgata notify and technically "ask permission" of the boss of the territory you're coming into, as a courtesy and to show respect.

Not sure if Louie Eboli would fit this mold, but I think a case could be made.

No. Louie was just a kid. Although he was the son of Tommy Eboli of NYC, Louie was raised and grew up in Chicago and out of courtesy for his dad, he was inducted there. He was never a NY guy, and was never "with" NY. He was always "out" of Chicago.

I'm not sure if Pat Ferruccio got permission from Cleveland before he went over to Pittsburgh. I only knew Pat through Henry and he was with Pittsburgh and involved in the failed Rincon River Oaks Casino. Might you have knowledge of this?

Where did you read to so called rule that they had to transfer within 6 months of moving into a new city? It's first I'm hearing of this.

What do you mean about Eboli?

Johnny Torrio is another questionable character....Chicago-Genovese...

NYM corrected me, but I was saying that maybe you could make a case for him being transferred from Genovese-Chicago. But I did not realize that he grew up in Chicago. Thought he was back and forth with most of his time being spent in NYC.

Oh ok, sorry. Thanks for clearing that up bud since I thought you have some info.

Regarding Torrio...even though we still dont have any official info if he was a made member of the US Mafia during his reign as one of Chicago's leaders, still we have info that he was close to the Mike Merlo regime and after the attempt on his life, Torrio returned back to NY. Later in 1954 he returned to Chicago as a peacemaker together with Genovese member Tony Ricci, which means that Torrio still held some stature and respectability in the US Mafia and possibly belonged to the Genovese fam.

Stefano Randazzo - made member in Cleveland- transferred to Trafficantes

Vincent Amato - made Gambino member - transferred to Trafficantes

I agree it's possible but I'm more inclined to believe if Johnny Torrio was made he was always with the Masseria/Genovese Family. Al Capone was clearly under him but we know Al Capone was a Masseria Family Associate so Johnny Torrio probably was too and maybe was made later on when he returned to NYC.

FOH, If, in fact, Ferruccio WAS an inducted member before he relocated to Pittsburgh, then both bosses of Cleveland and Pittsburgh would have had to approve of his "transfer."

If he was a top on-record associate, and especially if he was already a "proposed" associate (who are treated with almost the same reverence and have to follow the same rules as made guys,) then he would have still needed approval for a transfer.

But if he was just a general associate, and nothing special, no special "status" per se, then he could have just moved to Pittsburgh and tied up with La Rocca guys. Cleveland would not have needed to be consulted, although if they were aware of it, as a courtesy to Ferruccio if he was liked, they may have send a message to Pittsburgh that he was a good guy....as a courtesy to him.

Thats how these things work.

I suspect that Torrio was a made guy early on. Who most probably get straightened out by NY before relocating to Chicago. (although it's possible he was inducted later in Chicago by NY.)

But either way, as you mentioned, after relocating back to NY he was indeed a respected, card-carrying member of the Lucky Luciano Family.

Within the five families, it almost never happens. It can happen between cities, but it's also rare

Especially nowadays where there are less than half the families there once was. Even if a guy wanted to "transfer" to say a Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, San Francesco, Dallas, etc., there's no one over there anymore. Lol.

Thank you for a more detailed explanation of how things probably happened when Pat switched over to Pittsburgh. FWIW:With your incredible knowledge of some many LCN families; why not write a book. You have taught me a lot!

You’re welcome FOH, anytime. Although, truth be told, you better be careful, because giving me a compliment could get you in trouble around here with certain folks. LOL.

I agree. Capone was made a decina by NY and was explained the secrets of the Mafia and was also given the right to pick his own ten guys and to turn them into made members. This means that previously Capone wasnt told about the secrets of the Mafia by anyone. So my other theory is that previously Torrio wasnt a decina because he obviously was going to make Capone a made man way before 1928, even though Torrio was connected to the Merlo regime which in turn was probably connected to the D'Aquila regime back in NY. So it is possible that Torrio was only a made soldier OR was just an associate of the Mafia (quite powerful one) when relocating to Chicago and later switched OR received his membership after relocating to New York by becoming a member of the Genovese family and was looked upon as senior gangster. Just my two cents lol...

I agree. Torrio (born in the mainland of southern Italy, the Basilicata region) was NOT a member of the Sicilian Mafia. Like Capone and others, he was more Camorrista than Mafioso. Torrio and Capone were most probably "brought in" about the same time, and each was originally a member of the old Masseria Family, which became the Luciano/Genovese Family. Hence their unwavering connection through the years to that particular NY Family.

I think you have a point regarding Capone and Torrio being made around the same time. Capone was made in 1928, the same year when Torrio returned to the U.S. I dont remember the story but I think that when Torrio fled Chicago in 1925/26, he landed in Italy before returning to the states.

And yes, I also believe that most of them were previously camorristi but since the Sicilian Mafia prevailed, they needed to be made in the American-Sicilian brotherhood.

Thank you for a more detailed explanation of how things probably happened when Pat switched over to Pittsburgh. FWIW:With your incredible knowledge of some many LCN families; why not write a book. You have taught me a lot!
[/quote
What a select few think is of no concern to me. They can kiss my A**!

Lol +1

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I'm glad to hear you say that FOH. That was spoken like a man...And truth be told, thats the right way to think and the proper way to conduct yourself. Like a man, who can think for himself. Unlike a few others on here who act like sheep, mindlessly regurgitating bullshit that others put into their mouths, working them like a puppet, and then playing "follow the leader to the slaughter house." LOL

Larry Gallo and Sammy Gravano both changed families after being made.

CNote, thats not completely correct. Gravano was on-record as an "associate" with the Colombo crew (he was never inducted as a member with them.) After getting released to the Gambino crew, he was later inducted with them.

And I think you mean "Albert Gallo," not his old brother Larry. As far as I know, Larry was always with the old Profaci/Colombo crew. His kid brother Albert (Blast) was an "associate" of that crew too. But after Larry died of cancer and their brother Joey got whacked out, Chin Gigante was able to convince the Colombo crew to release Albert to him. Thereafter, the Genovese crew inducted Albert and another former Colombo affiliate, Albert's close friend Frank (Punchy) Illiano.

When it comes to this question, I've wondered about Carmine Galante.

Reputable sources state that when Galante was released from his second prison stint in the late 30s he went to work with The Luciano Family but his exact membership status with them was unclear. Since he is of Castellamarase extraction (although he himself was born in New York) one would think he could only be made with The Bonannos which was a Castellamarase borgata. Yet with all the work he put in for The Luciano Family from making exorbitant drug money with Vito Genovese for years as well as carrying out hits for him, you'd think this would result in him being made with The Lucianos.

We know Galante was with The Bonannos and it's mainly associates who transfer between families, not made men but I do think it's possible that Galante was first made in The Luciano Family and later transferred.

After Salvatore Maranzano's death and The Castellamarase War, Bonanno and Luciano came to terms which seemed to result in a strong bond between them so Galante may not have been seen as betraying his bloodline by running with The Lucianos and being made with them. Then when Luciano's legal issues began and Genovese left to Italy, it's possible an agreement was made for Bonanno to take Galante under his wing and he was officially transferred to The Bonannos.

Great to see you posting here Scott, brings the level up !

I stand corrected NYM, I should know better than to post here without fact checking my hunches, Thanks.

CNote, like they say, "no harm, no foul." At one time or another, we all make mistakes. Thats why we're on this forum, to support and learn from one another.

But the more important thing is we always act gentlemanly and civil with one another. And thats something you always do. So thank you for that. It's always my pleasure to interact with a gentleman like you.

Ally persico senior - when he got out of jail was made into patriarca family (due to NY books being closed) then “transferred “ immediately back to Colombos to join the administration effectively. He was given a “time served button” and with Carmine being the force that he was no-one was going to say anything about that!

Another example of the close ties throughout the years between Boston and colombos.

Oh yeah don’t forget Nicky bianco was a Colombo associate who swapped to patriarcas and got his button there

Jackie DiNorscio transferred from Philly to the Lucchese.

I believe several Cleveland members transferred to Los Angeles family.

It was the Bufalino Family Persico was made into and then transfered to the Colombo Family.

Im not sure but i think there was one Mike Moro (?) who started in Chicago (Cicero?) but later ended up in Buffalo or something like that.

Some of the greatest examples of these types of "transfers" or "re-affiliations" can be seen between the east coast and west coast (California families,) namely San Jose, San Francisco and L.A.

For example; Dominick Anzalone and Vito Adragna were both originally card-carrying members of the Pittsburgh, PA Family, until they later relocated out to California and transferred their Cosa Nostra memberships to the San Jose crew. Capo Angelo Marino was another former Pittsburgh member. Stefano Zoccoli was another.

Another was soldier Salvatore Cerrito, and even his brother, Joe Cerrito (who later actually became boss of the S.J. Family) were originally soldiers of Brooklyn's Profaci Family. Soldier Frank Buffa was another one who relocated from the Brooklyn crew out to San Jose.

The California families are replete with examples of fellas who transferred their memberships to those crews after moving out west.

But there are many other inducted members who fit the same exact profiles sprinkled throughout other borgatas across the country.

For what its worth, back during the late 1910s one alleged old Chicago Mafia member Tommy Petrotta relocated to Sacramento, California and possibly sooner or later transferred his membership. Petrotta wasn’t the only alleged Chicago member who relocated out west since in 1917 he was followed by another alleged member Tony D’Acunto and also one Vincenzo Roselli, who in turn relocated few years later, and they mainly operated around West Market St. in Los Angeles, California; meaning they also probably switched membership.

No doubt. And there are other Chicago examples, such as Johnny Roselli (who I think you mentioned in an earlier post.) The Detroit crew for that matter also had guys relocate out to CA.

"Transfers" between families in other states was actually quite common back in the day.

Mike Rizzittello tried to be better: asked to NY the ok to start his own family in L.A. but NY said no,at the end he runned a semi-indepent crew in L.A. family.

One of the still most "mysterious" crews for me is the old Indiana crew. It seems there was a crew there even before Capone, and was either connected to one of Chicagos old or former families, or was independent. Big Jim Colosimo had interests in that area but I think there was also either a Sicilian decina over there or some small Sicilian fam, and years later that same faction fell under the old Chicago Mafia and later under the Chicago Outfit, especially under the Chi Heights group.

Im saying this because theres a great possibility that some old Indinana members later joined the Chicago family or switched membership. By the 1952/53 the "new" Indiana crew was mainly created by old time Mafia members from the old North Side group, something which might confirm my theory. One of the Indiana capos was former member of the old North Side mafia Tony Pinelli who I previously mentioned regarding switching his membership to the LA fam sometime around the mid 1960s.

Oh was it them, good spot TD. Must’ve mixed them up. Russell buffalino was everywhere in that life man, how was he so well connected

Don’t forget about Larry Bianco. Got made while the books were closed and seemed to have spent a ton of time with the Colombo’s and of course New England

Speaking about Russel Baffalino i've started reading Billy D'Elia's book and the first quote is by Buffalino :

"The impossible, we could fix right away. Miracles take a day or two"

I love that quote. It tells you everything about how much power these guys had at the time and how confident they felt.

I think you meant to say Nicky Bianco.

Yes, Bianco "switched" several times. He originally started out with Ray Patriarca in NE. Ray sent him down to NYC as an emissary and potential peacemaker during the first Gallo-Profaci War.

Nicky ended up staying with the Colombo for decades, and eventually got inducted there. After the second internal war - The Gallo-Colombo War - he moved away from Brooklyn, back up to NE and got himself transferred permanently to the NE crew, where he eventually rose to a position of prominence.

Some additional info regarding Moro and it seems he was also one of Rosellis mentors...

......so which family this guy belonged to?

Thats a very good question, TD. Truthfully, I've never heard of any of these guys.

It seems Moro was first in Buffalo and later in LA,. Later he ended up in Chicago and to become a "big man" in Chicago during the 1930s means that Moro probably had big connections in the Outfit and his connection to Roselli makes me think that Moro was directly connected to Ricca. Also it seems he later went to Canada....one quite mysterious individual lol

It might be the same guy, I have a Michele Moro who was associated with Red Hook, Frankie Yale pre 1920s who was also associated with the Camorra, who went to Rochester NY. It could be the same guy, mid 20s before 1920?

Might be the same guy.

The reports say that Moro owned a joint in Buffalo pre and post Prohibition. It also says that in 1923 Moro was in NYC and so he probably arrived in Chicago sometime during the mid 1920s and probably stayed there intil 1932 or by the end of Prohibition, and later went to LA where he operated a new joint and also operated a joint in AZ, meaning the guy was all around the country lol. Interesting to note is that the late 1920s and early 30s was the time period when many mobsters fled Chicago because of the bloody conflict at the time. Im not saying that Moro was one of those guys but who knows?! Maybe he was the "Roselli" type of member who had membership in another family but also had close ties to Chicago and NY/Buffalo?

Interesting to note is that two of Moro's brothers Albert and Harry possibly remained in Berwyn which is an area next to Cicero, something which confirms Moro's old bootlegging ops in that same territory. Moro also had a sister and her husband worked in Chicago's City Hall until the early 1950s.

Pittsburgh back in the day had made guys switch to California and of course Frank Valenti went to Rochester to be Boss.

In addition, heres the file regarding Outfit capo Tony Pinelli..