Again, thats right.

Alex wanted to retire from the Outfit since the mid or late 1960s, but he was never allowed by Accardo and the rest of the top level Italians. If he was considered a simple associate or complete outsider, he had the right to retire like other Chicago high level non-Itals did (Eddie Vogel, Hyman Larner, Joe Epstein etc.) but he never received that pleasure.

As you already said, he worked at the pleasure for the Cosa Nostra group and was trusted and needed by them, and so he ended like that until his imprisonment in 1992/93.

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Btw, whats your opinion regarding Chicago not having traditional inductions while the books were closed or maybe even before that?

Also is there a difference between Italian and non-Italian candidate and associate who received a tap on the back and "you are with us", followed by a lavish dinner?

I don't buy into that. At all. Not one iota.

In different cities across the country there have always been slight variations on the theme. But, by and large, (and I'd bet my bottom dollar on it), the Chicago Mob did it the same "traditional" way, as IS the way, of all Cosa Nostra. Especially back in the earlier decades during the mob's heyday.

In later years, after things got watered down, the ceremony might have become less formal and skewed a bit. But back in the day, I am positive that they followed formality.

I think the difference is that (despite what popular theory is), the "core" Chicago "Family" of inducted men was actually very small, and the process was kept under tremendous wraps and truly honored by the secrecy surrounding it. Can you ever imagine a devout mafioso like a Tony Accardo or Paul DeLucia EVER doing it differently? I can't.
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Remember too, that many many (I'll say it once again), many of the Italian racketeers that both the FBI, and even fellow mob figures operating on the streets of Chicago took for granted as "made" guys, were in fact, NOT made. They may have held lofty positions and were in control of others, giving orders like a good fellow. But in truth, they had never actually gone through the process of formal induction.

I'm sure some of them may have been what we call "proposed." Others were just Italian racket guys given authority to act on behalf of the organization (not unlike the non-Italians we were discussing like a Alex, Humphreys, Guzik, etc).

But "outsiders," whether they be cops or crooks, unwittingly afforded them the respect of made guys. Understand what I'm trying to convey?
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Frankly, if you check old FBI files and Chicago hierarchy charts, you'll see that some of them list upwards of 100-150 soldiers. Thats a total fallacy IMO. More likely, the Outfit's total "formal inducted" soldiers never exceeded 40-50 men (if that).

Accardo and DeLucia were no dummies! They kept their "core" very small and tight. Hence, the great secrecy that they enjoyed many years after other families throughout the country were gaining exposure through rats.

In my view, the actual Chicago Mafia was kept small on purpose, but this small hardcore group controlled thousands of allied racketeers and associates of every size, stripe, and shape.

Smart! Smart! Smart!...

Yes I understand what you're saying and i also understand why you dont buy it

BUT, we have info or files from the Giancana and Battaglia eras that new candidates were required to do certain jobs, including murder, and later they were questioned by the Outfits governing board and if needed, the candidates were given additional tasks and later they were only told they were "in". That was it. No traditional ceremony or anything like that.

Butch Blasi (informant, made guy and close associate of both Accardo and Giancana) was allegedly made by old time capo Jimmy Belcastro in 1944/45, who in turn only told Blasi "youre in" or "youre with us", and again that was it. Again, no traditional induction.

Not withstanding that "alleged" data, I don't buy into it. Is it possible that during times of internal strife or heavy FBI presence that Accardo ordered a much shortened ceremony. Of course. But I just don't see it. And it flies in the face of everything I know (we know) to be true.

How bout I throw out a "wild" theory here? Lol. One that I know is gonna throw you and a lot of other people here for a loop.

What if I told you that some of the very guys who "claimed" to their FBI handlers they were "made," actually weren't? And that a few others, although they gave up some info, still kept the details of their "making" as a hallowed secret.

How bout some of these fellows, might have even been told that they were now "in." But in reality, were NOT made members at all. But being outsiders, they really didn't even understand the difference between the two. They were still "green" and completely ignorant to the "real" process and what becoming a made guy consisted of?

This is what I truly believe took place!

I bet that many Chicago Mob aficionados will fall out of their chairs as they read this. Lol.

Im talking about info which was given by made guys/informers, who were confirmed being made by other made informers too.

Also, during those days Giancana and Battaglia made all inductions, not Accardo or Ricca.

According to one wiretapped convo between Genovese capos, there was some high level meeting between east coast and midwest bosses on which everyone talked in Italian while Giancana was making funny faces and was making fun of them because he was completely Americanized. So do you think that Giancana cared about tradition? No way bro. Lol

As for the Outfit having 50 made guys during the 50s and 60s, is completely wrong. Pls dont go there lol

It's possible that the Outfit had more than 40-50 inducted members. But not much more (IMO). You gotta remember something (and this is important). Once you're made, technically, you share in all the spoils of the borgata. So it generally becomes a wise financial decision to keep the core small so the money stays among the key members.

Do NOT think that a 50-member family doesn't have the capacity to exert massive power and influence over thousands of other racketeers, businesses, and rackets. To the contrary, its actually an extremely intelligent move. And Accardo/DeLucia were no dummies.

NYC is different for several reasons. Number one, it's massive in its population. One family simply doesn't cut it here. #2, it was/is the hub of the Mafia in the U.S., and the original landing point for the vast majority of Italians who arrived in America. #3, the level of competition among hoodlums here necessitated the early development of 5 families and another close by in NJ.
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Chicago had no such problems. It is much smaller in population, never had to contend with 4 rival families, and could operate semi-independently as they wished. These facts afforded them the luxury of shaping their "borgata" (not the Outfit per se, but the core Mafia borgata) as they wished.

My views are NOT a slight to the Chicago Mob in any way, shape, or form. Understand that. It's actually a major compliment to their savvy and guile.
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Remember too, that the term Chicago "Outfit" is deceptive in its use. Because although it commonly refers to Chicago's Mafia Family, it is, in my view, NOT the proper terminology to be used at all.

Terms like the Chicago Outfit, the Chicago Syndicate, etc., IMO, more appropriately refer to the "overall" underworld organization which consists of Irish, Jewish, Welsh, Polish, Greek, all the other uninitiated Italians, etc., etc.

The Chicago "Mafia" is completely, unequivocally, a separate - but allied - criminal group. A small, core membership the oversees and governs the overall "Outfit."

PS: If you examine the total rank-n-file membership of nearly every other Family in the U.S., you'll see that nearly all of them hovered around 40-75 members total. At best!

These numbers go to my point, that entire cities were on total lock-down by borgatas that essentially only had small "core" memberships. But hundreds and hundreds of associates.
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I hope that I was able to clarify what I was trying to convey to you here.

One last point, if I may.

Remember that none of us were in the room, nor are we privy to what was discussed or how they brought guys "in." So this is largely conjecture on the part of researchers and others who are trying to glue together little bits and pieces and snippets of information gleaned over the years. Which may, or may not, hold any validity at all.

Because Chicago was admittedly a somewhat unique group, even their daily conduct, rules, and rituals are subject to more interpretation than in some other cities.

Nicely said and again I agree 100%.

In fact I forgot to mention in my previous posts on what you just stated regarding the "Outfit" term, meaning I personally vote for the Chicago "syndicate" term as overall organization with the Italians or Cosa Nostra at the top. When Lenny Patrick (Alex was his boss) became informant during the late 80s or early 90s, he was just one of the few informants who gave exact formation of the CN brotherhood and on who was the real boss and underboss. These guys were obvious part of the organization. Imagine if Alex ever became an informant?! LOL LOL

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Regarding NY and Chicago....NY had/has five families and even though was/is a much bigger city, still Chicago was the second largest city at the time with ONLY ONE boss.

Dont forget that before Capone, there were allegedly TWO Mafia families in Chicago. One was stationed around the North, West and South parts of the city, while the other controlled the Chicago Heights area and almost all souther suburbs, including Joliet and northwest Indiana.

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As for the number of members, I think the Chi family reached its peak during the Giancana era or during the 50s and 60s.

Capone made his own ten guys in 1928 right?! But he also inherited many previously made guys from the old Sicilian Mafia, while others fled the city and joined other families. Also, Capone allegedly didnt stop making guys until his imprisonment in 1932. What about Ricca and Campagna making guys from 1933 until 1942? What about Fischetti from 1944 until 1946, or Accardo making guys from 1947 until 1956? What about Giancana or Battaglia? What about guys who transferred their memberships to Chicago, like Roselli etc?

The guys who were made previously and during the Capone era, and after Capone's reign (with other bosses like Ricca, Fischetti, Accardo, Giancana), most of them were still alive at least until the late 60s or early 70s, which again is a proof that Chicagos peak in membership was probably during the time period I previously mentioned or the 50s and 60s and was probably over 100 made guys.

I think the "smaller and more influential membership" came later.

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I also get the point that we werent in the room when the guys were made but if Rocky Infelice tells an informant during the late 80s that Chicago began making people in the old way, i would rather believe that. Or if few old time informants are saying that Chicago didnt have any tradition during certain time periods, i rather believe them than my own street knowledge lol

Dont get me wrong....90% of the info that we posses depends on their information. How do you know about the CN hierarchy then? Lol you get my point?! Everything that we have about the US Mafia mostly comes from informants, starting from Gentile and all the way to Nick Calabrese etc. Even the young informant Magnafichi (his father was Elmwood Park capo) labelled Alex as "consigliere" but some good researchers say that these guys are known to generalize stuff and im down with that too, but wheres smoke theres also usually fire too...if you get my point?!

Every mob researcher first should look at these stuff/inside info and then create his OWN opinion, but again based mostly (at least 80%) from the previously mentioned inside sources. Every information which comes from a made informant should be taken with a small grain of salt but still thats all we got. Although my own research mostly depends on wiretapped convos which is the real truth.

For example when two Chicago made guys said that they belonged to Alex, the same way Skids Caruso (capo) also belonged to him. Thats the real truth because those guys thought that no one was listening to them lol.

Not to disrupt this, because this is an awesome back and forth you guys are having, but the part about Giancana there at the end made me spit out my coffee. Funny stuff!

its true. Im not quite sure but I think Gyp DeCarlo was one of the Genovese guys who was involved in that same convo. You can find it on the MF site. The only Sicilian tradition which Giancana followed was the anal sex with McGuire and probably Monroe, since during the old days Sicilian women kept their virginity by having only anal intercourse until they were married. So yeah, Giancana was quite "traditional" regarding his own desires He also screw the wives of many made members and nobody moved a finger about it. Giancana was a sexual maniac

Btw...do you see any resemblance between Momo and Solly D?

[/quote]

Im talking about info which was given by made guys/informers, who were confirmed being made by other made informers too.

Also, during those days Giancana and Battaglia made all inductions, not Accardo or Ricca.

According to one wiretapped convo between Genovese capos, there was some high level meeting between east coast and midwest bosses on which everyone talked in Italian while Giancana was making funny faces and was making fun of them because he was completely Americanized. So do you think that Giancana cared about tradition? No way bro. Lol

As for the Outfit having 50 made guys during the 50s and 60s, is completely wrong. Pls dont go there lol[/quote]
Not to disrupt this, because this is an awesome back and forth you guys are having, but the part about Giancana there at the end made me spit out my coffee. Funny stuff![/quote]


its true. Im not quite sure but I think Gyp DeCarlo was one of the Genovese guys who was involved in that same convo. You can find it on the MF site. The only Sicilian tradition which Giancana followed was the anal sex with McGuire and probably Monroe, since during the old days Sicilian women kept their virginity by having only anal intercourse until they were married. So yeah, Giancana was quite "traditional" regarding his own desires He also screw the wives of many made members and nobody moved a finger about it. Giancana was a sexual maniac

Btw...do you see any resemblance between Momo and Solly D?





[/quote]
LOL. Man talk about a guy who gave absolutely zero fucks. He was Gotti before Gotti, only way more intelligent than John. There are some similiarties there though between Solly and Mooney, especially the size of their nose!

Another funny thing about Solly D is that he's very active on facebook. Not sure if you're on there, but if you are he's always sharing photos.

I agree. Momo was "Gotti" before Gotti but yeah he was more smarter in the view of doing business. According to one convo between Philly boss Angelo Bruno and another guy...Bruno said that Giancana worked with everyone, literally, which in fact was the Chicago way.

Btw, I dont have FB but some of you guys can send these two pics to Solly D

Proportionately speaking, NYC's five Boros, and its immediate adjoining suburbs like Nassau/Suffolk and Westchester Counties totaled in the area of 11 million people. And thats not counting right over the bridge to No. Jersey where the Families had some of their crews active, which would probably add at least another 2-3 million people.

So the overall NY Metropolitan area is massive by comparison to the overall Chicago Metropolitan area. These areas also house a much much larger overall Italian population, in general, than does the Chicago metro area. Hence, the reason and need for more than one family popping up there. Then add in the Magaddino Family in Upstate NY. (not to mention Ellis Island is there, which is where most immigrants, Italian or otherwise, landed).

And as you mentioned, when he was made into NY's Masseria Family (which is the Genovese Family), he was made a capodecina and given 10 buttons to hand out. Capone did NOT wantonly keep making guys as you say until his imprisonment in 1932, for the simple reason that he was NOT a boss, only a capo. He had to follow the dictates and rules of the Masseria Family (all mafia families follow commission rules for that matter), which states that "you need to ask permission" before making anyone.

It is only after Masseria and Maranzano are killed, and the "official" Commission was formed around 1931, that he was named a boss. And even then, ALL borgatas throughout the United States were required to "ask" permission to make more men. All families have a "cap" on their membership totals. And Capone/Chicago was no different. Especially him, as a Napolitano, as opposed to a Sicilian. Capone would have known better than that. And certainly Accardo and DeLucia knew better and adhered to the rules accordingly.

As far as succeeding front bosses continually "making" guys? Fischetti, Giancana, Battaglia, etc. Its the same thing. And even when they do make guys, what do you think? They're making em by the dozens? Lol. No way! No how! These are very coveted spots. Given to a small handful of guys at best. Maybe even one or two during various intervals. Which is strategically handed out to those few men needed to help facilitate and keep the machine greased.

So over, even a twenty year period, IMO, were maybe talking maybe 10,15, 20 new soldiers (at best).

Note: Chicago's "Aiello Family" was a small Sicilian Mafia group. I think the Gennas might have been separate from Aiello too for that matter. You had Chicago Heights (but the powers there were blended; Sicilian, Calabrese, etc., and may have been after Capone became the boss). When Capone clipped Aiello for Masseria, most of whatever membership Aiello had fled like thieves in the night. I suspect that very few stayed around and joined up with the Capone "Family."

So, if you start with 10 men in a decina? and over the next 30-40 years you make even another 30-40 more (which is NOT unreasonable). What do ya have? 50+/- soldiers. Thats all. What about the guys during that same time period that got clipped or died or shelved? Lol. We gotta count them too, no?

You wanna add another few dozen (for the sake of this discussion). Go ahead. Thats still a limited "inducted," "official" Cosa Nostra membership.
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I do agree with you that their largest membership (whatever that number really was) would have been earlier on, say during the late 1930s, 1940s, early 1950s period. That dovetails with borgatas throughout the rest of the country. It's also when Cosa Nostra was at its healthiest.

in later decades, I think is when Accardo/DeLucia trimmed down the fat, maintaining a smaller leaner Family.
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And I agree once again when you say that Skids Caruso and other soldiers were "under" a non-Italian. We both agreed on that earlier. But again, make no mistake about that statement (because its deceptive). Caruso and the others owed their ONLY alliegence to their Mafia boss (Accardo/DeLucia). They would have dumped Alex in two seconds flat have they been ordered to do so.

Nice chatting with you TD. But I gotta run out ok. But I'm sure we'll catch up again soon (no doubt). Lol

No problem bro, good luck in whatever your business is and have a nice day.

But i have to answer some of your statements so you can read them after your return.

Snakes is the main guy who keeps records on these stuff but I think that in 1956/57 more than a dozen of guys were made and brought into the organization. I only know about some guys from the Buccieri and Daddono crews but there were much more. During the 60s we have additional guys like Cordovano etc. Lets go back in time even further...as I already said Blasi was made around 1944/45 and i strongly believe he wasnt the onle one, and if we go back to 1939 we can see Giancana being sponsored by Campagna and Nitto, right before Giancana went to jail. Again, I aldo strongly believe that Giancana wasnt the only one because we have Buccieri and Daddono sponsoring other members more than a decade later.

Lets go even further in the past or during the Capone era. Besides making his own ten guys and inheriting already made guys, we have information that guys like Frank LaPorte were also made by Capone. (Accardo was also probably one of them)

Do you think that Capone respected the "Sicilian" rules? If that was the case, then he, Aiello and Toto Loverde were going to rule all Midwest, West Coast and possibly East Coast too lol. Capone was already the main racketeer in Chicago even before he was made into the Mafia.

Capone "respected" the Sicilian rules the same way when previously Diamond Joe Esposito (Mainlander made guy possibly under D'Aquila) who walked around like a King with diamonds and shit...or when years later Accardo bough one of the biggest mansions or when Giancana walked around with famous women. Or letting non-Itals like Humphreys, Alex and Pierce (informant) to have more knowledge regarding the Italian brotherhood than some of the actual low level made guys.

That was Chicagos "respect" towards the Sicilian tradition.

Also, remnants from the Aiello and Genna groups werent the only members who joined the newly formed Capone family, but instead there were numerous members from the old North/West Side group, Chicago Heights group, South Side group and also northwest Indiana.

During the 50s and 60s....over 100 made guys...believe me LOL

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As for "dumping Alex in two seconds flat have they been ordered to do so" you are completely right because the same situation almost happened to Accardo during the early 50s when he was in conflict with the Ricca/Battaglia/Giancana group. Theres one so-called "legend" that during the conflict, one day Giancana or Battaglia or maybe someone else from their crew, allegedly rang on Accardos door and pumped few bullets in the door the moment he/they heard someone walking towards the door from the other side. I think there was also another story in which Accardo was allegedly on a meeting with Giancana and other guys and they all sat in a car and suddenly a bullet almost hit Accardo which allegedly came from a nearby brawl between some man and his wife LoLol. Can you believe that right?! Lol

And so Alex together with Ferraro were the guys who betrayed their former capo Bruno Roti Sr who in turn was in alliance with Accardo against the opposing faction. This was a huge point for Alex in the eyes of Ricca, Giancana and Battaglia. Alex received the information from Pete or Nick Kokenes (dont remember the first name) who in turn belonged to the Accardo/Roti faction at the time but was more closer to his blood relative and so Alex made the right choice lol because he was a corruptor and understood Chicagos undwerworld to the fullest.

Cheers

TD,

I think you and I have beaten this subject to death. Lol. But I'll add my last two cents and then I'm gonna call it a wrap, ok?

#1, I would take with a major grain of salt, any so-called "legend" about Accardo being shot at, set up, his door peppered with shots, etc. I DO NOT believe that for a second. And if that did happen, whoever orchestrated those moves would have gotten themselves whacked out. (regardless of who they might have been). So for me, thats not a legend, it's a fallacy, IMO.

#2, Maybe they had 40 made guys, maybe 50-60, maybe even 100 at their peak as you stated. But regardless of the actual number of members, for me at least, its immaterial to the overall conversation. Because they controlled thousands of guys. Of all stripes and types, both legit and ill-legit. And proportionately speaking, the "made" guys were but a bleep in the overall landscape of the "Chicago Syndicate." Yet, they ruled over it all with an iron fist.

So why get into a pissing contest over BS and minutia? Am I right here, or what?

You could very well be correct in your numerical estimates. I don't personally think so, but who really knows? So I think we can agree to disagree on such trivia.

#3, And lastly, the "Sicilian" tradition I talk about it NOT to be confused with some antiquated, out of date policies. What I talk about IS the heart-n-soul of Cosa Nostra. This is not 2023 we're speaking of, its the 1930s-1980s era. Rules were meant to be followed. Especially back then. So don't think for one minute (not even one single second), despite however "wild" a Sam Giancana or other guys may have been in their personal lives or daily antics, that they "skirted" basic rules. Some did (I'm sure). But they did so at their own potential peril. Believe you me!

Remember, (always), that however powerful you think the Chicago Mob was. They were "originally" an offshoot of New York's Masseria/Luciano/Genovese Family. And that family follows formality, to a T. NYC is also where the original Commission was formed. And Chicago had a seat on that body and maintained very close ties to all the NY borgatas for many decades. Especially their alter-ego, the Luciano/Genovese crew. It wasn't until many decades later that a second, smaller midwest Commission was allowed to be formed that Chicago "chaired."

Chicago and New York were always in lockstep with one another, and Chicago respected Commission rulings and policy making. THATS a fact!
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Anyway, stay well. This was an interesting give-n-take.

Imo, if Ricca had ordered it for some reason (hypothetically speaking of course), he had all the chances to get away with it. Accardo was very powerful, but Ricca still was above him, wasn't he?

Just a minor observation.

Thats right.

Ricca was Capones successor, had more seniority than Accardo and also had more power. Both Ricca and Accardo belonged to the West Side group but Ricca was the real leader with more people behind him. When Ricca was in jail, Accardo and big part of the organization did everything out of fear and loyalty for Riccas early release. Genovese boss Tommy Eboli once said to Ricca that he respected him (Ricca), the same way he respected Vito, or something like that. So yeah Ricca was more powerful and important than Accardo.

The conflict between Ricca and Accardo started because Ricca and the rest of the bosses werent satisfied on how Accardo was leading the organization, mainly because he managed to screw up two of the most lucrative rackets for the Outfit at the time, and above all he and Roti Sr wanted to keep another lucrative racket away from the Ricca/Battaglia group and thats when the war started.

In 1954 two of Accardos associates were killed (Labriola and Weinberg) and a so-called peace delegation arrived from New York which included John Torrio (former Chi boss) and Tony Ricci (former Chicagoan, Genovese member and main messenger between Chi and the Genoveses) and there was a meeting on Chicagos North Side. Accardo and Roti Sr were probably next in line on the hit list and thats why Torrio came so he can make peace between the warring factions.

Regarding Chicagos real "feelings" towards New York....during the early 70s or before Riccas death, there was a meeting between him and Accardo in some restaurant and they were talking about the problems in the Colombo family and one of them stated "Better them then us" and they both agreed on that one. (same as Statler and Waldorf from the Muppet Show )

I think that statement sums it all up.

I thought I was done with this conversation, but some of the statements you made force me to jump into the water again. Lol
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You'll have to forgive me if I don't believe some parts of that story about the "war" between Ricca and Accardo, ok?

#1, if in fact, there was a rift between the two of them (which is not unreasonable to assume), then IMO it never even got close to what you're describing. Because I don't believe a man like Accardo would have ever accepted such a frontal assault against him without serious repercussions, regardless of who plotted it, Ricca, or otherwise.

#2, I also don't believe that a careful, measured man like Ricca would have been so foolhardy and slipshod to have made, not one, but multiple violent moves against such a dangerous opponent like Accardo, in such an amateurish and "Keystone Cops" kinda way, with weak, half-assed murder attempts.

If, and when, you make a move against an Accardo, you get one bite at the apple. Understand? Not 43 comically inept, weak attempts to kill him. WTF? Lol....Pleeeez fellas. You're talking about a major Outfit power. A guy who's a stone killer himself. No way! No how! Who do you think they were dealing with here, PeeWee Herman?

Note: Aside from all the other ridiculous attempts you mentioned, I tell you this, here and now. If someone, anyone, ever approached MY front door, rang the bell, heard someone (but didn't know who it was) coming toward them and they fired shot bullets through the door? (Like you allege happened at Tony Accardo's own home?)...Where his wife, his children, and his loved ones resided? I doubt that ever happened.

I would make it my business to kill them all...And I wouldn't give a fuck who they were, or who they think they were, Ricca or otherwise! And I'm no Tony Accardo. Do you understand what I'm saying here, or what? This story is patently unbelievable. They could have killed his wife or kids? Ya kidding me right? Only a complete mutt would NOT revenge that type of unthinkable, disrespectful, degenerate move. And Anthony Accardo was no mutt!

Sorry fellas, but I'm not buying what you're trying to sell here!


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Lastly...

And this is your Quote: "Regarding Chicagos real "feelings" towards New York....during the early 70s or before Riccas death, there was a meeting between him and Accardo in some restaurant and they were talking about the problems in the Colombo family and one of them stated, (Quote); "Better them then us" and they both agreed on that one. (same as Statler and Waldorf from the Muppet Show lol ). I think that statement sums it all up."
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Really? You think this statement REALLY sums up how they think about NY?

I don't.

What was going on with the Colombo Family back then, the continual wars, was a subject on the lips of many wiseguys, not only in Chicago, but among the NY guys and guys all across the country too. It was not an enviable situation for any borgata to find themselves in. (to say the least). So, big deal?

I can even understand them, and picture Accardo and Ricca, making that statement. It makes sense. But what does that single statement have to do with the other four NYC families? The Commission (which is essentially comprised of the NY crews), or the way they feel about them?

I think you fellas are forgetting a few things. Like the fact that the "original" powers that formed the Chicago Syndicate, from Johnny Torrio and Al Capone, and beyond, first emanated out of NYC. And you can think what you like. But in reality, NYC held the ultimate power over ALL Mafia Families in the entire United States, including the Chicago Mob. For upwards of sixty years (six decades) I might add. Beyond that, because Cosa Nostra's hold over the national labor movement weakened, and the mob's hidden ownerships in Las Vegas casinos ended, an agreement was allegedly put in place to allow the remaining families from the midwest to the west coast to fall under a "second" smaller Commission, chaired by Chicago, to oversee whatever interests and settle whatever problems arose among them. There was little mutual interests between them at that point (thats why it was allowed).

Also remember, that the entire "Chicago Mafia Family," by any other name, first headed by Al Capone, was first "seeded" by New York's Masseria (later Luciano-Genovese) Family. Chicago was the "baby brother" of that NY Family. Capone himself was first "initiated" into the Mafia by New York. He was elevated to a "capo" status as we mentioned in an earlier post, and given the privilege of "making" 10 men. End of story.......Even years later, when Chicago was "allowed" to form a separate Family altogether, do you NOT think they were still beholden to NY's Five Families (specifically the Genovese Family) and The National Commission headed/chaired by NY which controls everybody?

Of course they were!....Always!

It might be an inconvenient truth for you guys to swallow. But these are all documented facts fellas!

PS: Johnny Torrio was NOT ex-Chicago as you stated. In reality, he was ex-New York, who was sent out to Chicago to expand the New York Mafia's interests, before later coming back to NY and rejoining the Luciano/Genovese Family membership...Thats another fact.

I tried to keep my cool but now you are being arrogant.

We are not selling anything. Me and fellas are just bringing out facts for which you obviously dont have a clue about.

Lets be real here. You dont know shit about Chicago and so stay away from this thread.

You live day by day and believe in your own fictional ideas lol.

Grow up and make a difference between a fact and fictional ideas (like yours).

Capone created the biggest graveyard for all Sicilian gangsters lol. THATS A FACT Lol He killed them like dogs on daily basis and Ricca continued his job Lol lol lol

Stop answering my posts. Please.

Stick to your "New York is the greatest" idea and the whole world is Sicilian.

Cheers and pls ignore me.

EDIT: AND PLEASE STOP EDITING YOUR OLD POST AND THE NEXT ONE. I ALREADY QUOTED YOUR OLD OFFENSIVE MESSAGE

Well that was completely uncalled for. I only responded to you based upon my personal take on the subject based on the information you presented, and other clear, well documented, historical facts.

Am I, or anyone else here for that matter, obligated to believe what you write simply because you wrote it? Of course not. We are all entitled to read various posts and draw our own conclusions accordingly. That includes you and I and others on this forum.

It was NOT a personal attack against you. So please don't take it as such. ok?? I seem to have struck a very sensitive cord with you. I just don't understand why. Once again I say, my words were not a personal attack aimed at you. It was a friendly chat. So what got you so triggered?

There is no reason to be so offended here.

And I suspect what you may be referring to as "arrogant" was my mentioning of historically proven information about the early development and pioneers of the Chicago Mob. These are NOT my facts. This is well-documented, proven history.
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But regardless. We are all entitled to draw our own conclusions. So I respect your position. And I can only hope that you will extend me the same courtesy.

Enjoy your day TD.

Lets get back to topic about Chicago's hitters. This is for those who are interested in the Chicago Syndicate or at least know something, and also for those who love to read about these stuff and might receive some additional info, not for those who are arrogant or want to destroy threads without any facts or evidences.

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Previously I mentioned Chuckie Nicoletti as one of Chicago's alleged hitters, who was also known as one of the most feared guys within the organization.

Nicoletti's first "hit" occurred at the age of 12 or in February 1929, when he killed his own biological father. In fact, that was the moment when Nicoletti really "made his bones".

One of the most gruesome hits which Nicoletti allegedly was involved in was the murder of William John Granata, a Republican candidate, that occurred in October 1948. Granata was found with his skull split wide open, possibly by a meat cleaver.

In August 1953, Nicoletti and Alderisio completely riddled Tony Ragucci with bullets and later Ragucci's body was found with his head downward in a sewer near 35th St. and Winchester Av. Ragucci's brother somehow managed to identify him by his ring with the initials "AR" since almost his whole body was ravaged by sewer rats.

Another interesting story is that Nicoletti was allegedly eating pasta when the guy's eye popped out while Spilotro had the victim's head in a vise.


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In June 1928, Claude Maddox, Fred Burke, Willie Heeney and Louis Campagna arrived in New York (Campagna was probably already there), and they took an apartment in Brooklyn and stalked Francesco Ioele a.k.a. Frankie Yale for almost a month, just to learn his everyday routines.

They found out that Yale had a new young wife by the name of Lucy and together they had 1 year old daughter. They also found out that Yale was very sensitive and carrying towards Lucy so the hitmen decided to take an advantage of that. One Sunday afternoon, on July 1, 1928, Yale was playing cards at his Sunrise Club, located at 14th Avenue and 65th Street, when suddenly he received a cryptic phone call. The caller said something was wrong with Lucy and his daughter and that he should come home fast. In a moment of panic, Yale took off with his brown colored Lincoln coupe but without his bodyguards.

Yale drove up to New Utrecht Avenue, where the hitmen in their Buick sedan drove next to him. Yale noticed the hit squad and took off west onto 44th Street, with the Buick close behind him. The chase continued but Yale's car was soon overtaken by the Buick, whose occupants riddled Yale with bullets. Yale lost control of his car and crashed into a stoop of a brownstone at No. 923. He opened the door of his car and fell to ground. One of the hitmen got out of their car and pumped few more bullets into Yale’s body. The job was done. Maddox and his men left the scene and drove nearly three blocks away where they abandoned their car and left on foot. Later the cops found the abandoned Buick and inside they found a .38 caliber revolver, a .45 automatic, a sawed-off pump shotgun, and a Thompson submachine gun.

One hit (and the details surrounding it) that I'd love to hear about is Teddy Roe.

The first and only mistake Giancana (underboss at the time) made with Roe was for sending his guys (one of them a capo) to kidnap Roe and to bring him alive.

As most of us read about it, Roe was an old school gangster and a real tough guy who was in the numbers and policy rackets since "day one" and was also associated with the old Capone mob. You see guys like Roe and Jones already worked with the Chicago mob and paid their percentage and that was it.

Maybe thats why at first Giancana didnt want to kill these guys but instead he wanted to scare them to death and to force them to give up their lucrative operations. And so Giancana had the same plan for Roe which he previously used on Jones, meaning he wanted Roe alive, to hold him for few days and in the end to chase him out of the city. But Roe was a different story.

In June 1951, Leonard Caifano, Vincent Ioli and another individual (dont remember his name) were sent by Giancana to kidnap Roe and to bring him alive. Fat Lenny Caifano was a capo who headed Giancana's crew and was also Giancana's most trusted guy since childhood. Caifano's younger brother was Marshall Caifano.

So Roe was driving along with his two bodyguards when suddenly a darkened sleek sedan was stealthily stalking their car. Roe recognized some of the stalkers and got off from his car, together with his bodyguards, and started shooting with their guns towards the sedan. The three Italians were caught completely off guard and during the process Lenny Caifano got shot directly in the head and died right there on the spot. Ioli allegedly also screamed that he’d also been hit and instinctively the other hitman got on the wheel and sped off into the night, leaving Caifano on the street in a pool of blood. Story goes that Giancana was very mad at the remaining hitmen for leaving Caifano's body behind. After Caifano's murder, Roe was arrested but was later released, while Caifano's younger brother Marshall was also arrested and constantly questioned by the cops and media if he had to do anything with the attack on Roe.

According to some old sources, the guys who took the situation in their own hands and the contract on Roe’s life were the revengeful brother Marshall Caifano and "Teets" Battaglia. They allegedly waited for things to cool down and to make their move at the right moment. This time they sent for two younger guys because they didnt want to make the same mistake, meaning Roe might again recognize his attackers, obviously because he knew most of them. The two young hitmen were allegedly Joseph "Joe the Freak" Amabile and Armando Fosco (Fosco's dad), because previously or during the 1940’s these two guys served as muscle for Battaglia and were allegedly very much trusted by him.

In August 1952, the two hitmen jumped in their 1950 grey Chevrolet sedan and drove across Michigan Avenue. The hit team parked their car behind two signboards in a vacant lot south of the building where Roe lived at 5247 South Michigan Avenue and waited for him. After some time Roe came out of the building and approached his car which was parked in front of the main entrance.

Suddenly the hitmen pulled out their 12 gauge shotguns filled with double-o-buckshots and fired 4 times at Roe. The blasts sent 45 large pellets, about as large as a .32 caliber bullets. The pellets entered Roe’s chest and also struck his head below the left ear. After that the killers sped off in a unknown direction. When the ambulance came, Roe was still breathing but later died shortly after his arrival in the Provident hospital. Behind the signboards where the killers stayed, the cops found five empty shotgun cartridges, tire tracks and an empty half-gallon beer bottle. No one was ever charged with the murder of Roe.

Since Fat Lenny Caifano was dead, the new capo of his crew became another one of his childhood friends known as Fiore "Fifi" Buccieri, but since Battaglia finished the so-called "Roe" problem and was well regarded in the eyes of the Outfits underboss Giancana, as a reward Teets received the old Rocco DeGrazia crew from around the Melrose Park area and all western suburbs, and also took some of the Taylor St guys with him.

Is there a certain hit or hits that you find most fascinating?

The one on Joe Aiello. There were allegedly 2 or 3 machinegun nests and they pumped him with bullets from a quite long distance.

Also the one on George Red Barker. He was also pumped with bullets from a long distance with a Thompson machinegun, while walking with three other people, meaning the amazing thing was that the aim of the assassins was so accurate that none of Barker’s friends were struck by the bullets

Capone's so-called "American boys" which included hitmen from around the country (Fred Burke, Fred Goetz, Gus Winkler, Raymond Nugent etc.) obviously knew how to aim straight with a machinegun and these guys were overseen by Capone members Tony Capezio, Willie Heeney and John Moore aka Claude Maddox, aka the so-called "Circus Cafe gang" (named by the media). In fact, Maddox was involved in WWI and so he also knew on how to handle weapons, while Capezio was a professional robber and burglar who probably also loved the Tommy gun lol.

I am personally more interested by the Outfit post Capone era, but stories like this remind me how much power he had and how ruthless he was. I guess while he's probably one of the most, if not the most influential figure in organized crime, his reign was so short that I sometimes discredit the power and prominence he had.

Great stuff as always.

Thanks man.

If you ask me, one of the best hits from the post-Capone era was obviously the Giancana hit and I think you can understand why lol.

Also, its nice to mention the April 1954 hit on Outfit associate Tony Pape and his brother James. Story goes that the two brothers got into their car and drove home and while driving down Flournoy Street, suddenly another car with two masked men tried to block their path and James Pape, who drove the car, quickly made a wild effort to elude the hit squad by turning his car around. The car chase lasted for more than a mile, since the Pape brothers were also known for fast driving and getaway operations but the hit squad somehow managed to get near their targets.

Now this is one the most “fascinating” moments and that’s when one of the assassins, in a matter of seconds, managed to fire only two shotgun blasts, thus fatally hitting James in the head and also fatally wounding his brother Tony, also in the head. Suddenly their car went out of control, struck the corner of a building and crashed on the sidewalk. James’ body was found sprawled face down in mud with his brain missing and with his legs still under the steering wheel, while Tony was quickly taken to the Garfield Park hospital in a critical condition and possibly in coma and died two days later.

In addition, Tony Pape was involved in narcotics and also in many auto-theft operations for the Outfit.

For my money, the Giancana hit is the best all time mob hit of all time.

+1

Btw you ever heard of this situation?

July 22, 1977: Joseph LaRose (possibly killed by Paul Schiro and Joey Hansen)
July 22, 1977: John Vische (possibly killed by Paul Schiro and Joey Hansen)
July 22, 1977: Donald Marchbanks (possibly killed by Paul Schiro and Joey Hansen)
July 22, 1977: Malcolm Russell (possibly killed by Paul Schiro and Joey Hansen)

I have to look at my old records but I think the hit happened in AZ and 3 or four guys were killed in an elevator at the same time.

I had not, but holy shit. Paulie "The Indian" was a psyschopath. Think he actually just got released to halfway house. Crazy to me that he's going to get out while Jimmy "the man" is going to do life in the worst prison in the country. On real spotty evidence, no less!