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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039599
08/31/22 10:33 PM
08/31/22 10:33 PM
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Lou_Para
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Had things turned differently,I think Mike would have settled down with Kay, raised a family,and pursued a very successful career in business,(perhaps Wall Street),or even in politics.
According to some articles I've seen,Mike expressed an interest in politics,even in childhood,and,wondered if there would ever be an Italian President.
The path he chose,(and some may argue,the one that he was forced into),while noble, in the sense of protecting the Corleones, turned out to be the great tragedy of his life.
He lost everything, his brothers,his wives,his children,and eventually,his beloved daughter,gave the Corleone Family business to Vincent, and died broken and alone.
Nothing in life is sadder than wasted talent.
Last edited by Lou_Para; 08/31/22 10:34 PM.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039601
08/31/22 11:25 PM
08/31/22 11:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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The only thing we know for sure, per the movie, is in a deleted scene, after Connie's wedding, when Vito and his sons visit the dying Genco in hospital. Vito asks Michael what his plans are, and Michael, obviously uncomfortable, says, "Finish school." Vito says he approves, and tells Michael to come to him after graduation. Michael turns away from Vito.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039603
09/01/22 12:17 AM
09/01/22 12:17 AM
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Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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There wasn't enough time, for Michael, wasn't enough time....to even enrol, to "Finish school" because of this Sollozzo business Vito's Grand plansThough it never says it explicitly in the movie: Vito wanted Michael home so he could turn over the reins of the family to him, I believe it was MIchael's initiative, not Vito's, to settle all family business before the move to Nevada. In a deleted part of the garden conference between Michael and Vito, MIchael says, "What about Sonny? What about Sicily?" Vito admits "It was a sign of weakness" that he didn't attempt vengeance. I infer that it meant he was leaving that to Michael. In the novel, Michael warns Vito that if he attempts to dissuade him from going ahead with the Great Massacre, Michael would go his own way Is it fleshed out in the novel that Vito had no stomach for vengeance? that “it was Michael's initiative” deliberately playing weak, to take Barzini and everyone, by surprise, with their brilliant Great Massacre [with “Vito's guidance and counsel”] I find this perplexing that Vito would let Sonny's murder [machine gunned like a Swiss cheese] and Michael's attempted murder, resulting in his new wife, Apollonia's death [car bombed] go unanswered by Carlo and Barzini respectively
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039604
09/01/22 12:17 AM
09/01/22 12:17 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Extract: Had things turned differently,I think Mike would have settled down with Kay, raised a family,and pursued a very successful career in business,(perhaps Wall Street),or even in politics Sure thing Lou this Sollozzo business turned things on its head However as Michael and Kay met at Dartmouth, Michael 'abandoned' Kay twice First when Michael “quit College” and went to war after the Pearl Harbour attack Michael and Kay must have reconnected on Michael's return from the war Second when Michael fled to Sicily after murdering Sollozzo and McCluskey Michael only contacted Kay after being back longer than a year Yet Kay still married Michael after all this time? Here -- Kay was calling and writing....
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039611
09/01/22 09:16 AM
09/01/22 09:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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However as Michael and Kay met at Dartmouth, Michael 'abandoned' Kay twice
First when Michael “quit College” and went to war after the Pearl Harbour attack Michael and Kay must have reconnected on Michael's return from the war
Is this in one of the followup novels? My sense is that Kay is clearly younger than Michael, probably in high school when the war started. The novel says she intended to finish school after marrying. The novel also says Michael "entered' Dartmouth after the war, "and so left his father's house.' So I think that Michael attended Fordham or some such before the war, and lived at home.
Last edited by mustachepete; 09/01/22 09:17 AM.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039636
09/01/22 06:57 PM
09/01/22 06:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
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The path he chose,(and some may argue,the one that he was forced into),while noble, in the sense of protecting the Corleones, turned out to be the great tragedy of his life.
He lost everything, his brothers,his wives,his children,and eventually,his beloved daughter,gave the Corleone Family business to Vincent, and died broken and alone.
It is not the path he was forced to choose, It is the wife he chose that done him in
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039637
09/01/22 07:00 PM
09/01/22 07:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
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Second when Michael fled to Sicily after murdering Sollozzo and McCluskey Michael only contacted Kay after being back longer than a year
Yet Kay still married Michael after all this time? Here -- Kay was calling and writing....
Vito, having no other suitable blood Corleone to succeed him, had Michael under his tutelage [with “Vito's guidance and counsel”] and that's why it took longer than a year for him to get around to seeking Kay and settling for her
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039638
09/01/22 07:03 PM
09/01/22 07:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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Michael was already enrolled in Dartmouth,but dropped out to enlist. After his return,he planned to re-enroll in Dartmouth without telling his family,but Fate stepped in. The novel says: "When Michael Corleone was discharged early in 1945 to recover from a disabling wound, he had no idea that his father had obtained his release. He stayed home for a few weeks, then, without consulting anyone, entered Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, and so left his father's house. To return for the wedding of his sister and show his own future wife to them, the washed-out rag of an American girl." I take that to mean that Michael had no connection with Dartmouth or Kay before the war.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039652
09/02/22 12:05 AM
09/02/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
Underboss
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The path he chose,(and some may argue,the one that he was forced into),while noble, in the sense of protecting the Corleones, turned out to be the great tragedy of his life.
He lost everything, his brothers,his wives,his children,and eventually,his beloved daughter,gave the Corleone Family business to Vincent, and died broken and alone.
It is not the path he was forced to choose, It is the wife he chose that done him in I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.but is it your position that Michael choosing Kay somehow caused him to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039654
09/02/22 12:06 AM
09/02/22 12:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777
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Vito, having no other suitable blood Corleone to succeed him, had Michael under his tutelage [with “Vito's guidance and counsel”] and that's why it took longer than a year for him to get around to seeking Kay and settling for her longer than a year and Mama couldn't find Michael a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! Success?Extract: Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused, among others - Michael's misery - Vito planned all the dirty work - killing of Carlo Rizzi [for Michael to make his daughter a widow] and Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael to carry out after Vito's death thus leaving a murderous legacy for "I never wanted this for you" son
- Vito "knew that he could never be "legitimate" in their world, but he hoped for that in Michael: Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone - thus placing the impossible, unrealistic burden - and Vito's "goal" for Michael - of the "obsession" on Michael "the source of his lifelong frustration:"
Thanks! Pop indeed
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039660
09/02/22 02:41 AM
09/02/22 02:41 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
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I find this perplexing that Vito would let Sonny's murder [machine gunned like a Swiss cheese] and Michael's attempted murder, resulting in his new wife, Apollonia's death [car bombed] go unanswered by Carlo and Barzini respectively How Kay know he married Apollonia
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039661
09/02/22 02:45 AM
09/02/22 02:45 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
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The only thing we know for sure, per the movie, is in a deleted scene, after Connie's wedding, when Vito and his sons visit the dying Genco in hospital. Vito asks Michael what his plans are, and Michael, obviously uncomfortable, says, "Finish school." Vito says he approves, and tells Michael to come to him after graduation. Michael turns away from Vito. why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039664
09/02/22 09:42 AM
09/02/22 09:42 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
Underboss
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Had things turned differently,I think Mike would have settled down with Kay, raised a family,and pursued a very successful career in business,(perhaps Wall Street),or even in politics.
According to some articles I've seen,Mike expressed an interest in politics,even in childhood,and,wondered if there would ever be an Italian President. what articles The Godfather Wiki Fan Page is one.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039666
09/02/22 10:36 AM
09/02/22 10:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
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why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039673
09/02/22 08:13 PM
09/02/22 08:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
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why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family. Vito would have already seen him with Kay when he came to the wedding late and in his Marine uniform Nobody missed that! Don't know Pete he may have disapproved of his American Girlfriend but I reckon there was nothing to conceal as their relationship was out in the open
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039674
09/02/22 08:17 PM
09/02/22 08:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
Underboss
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The path he chose,(and some may argue,the one that he was forced into),while noble, in the sense of protecting the Corleones, turned out to be the great tragedy of his life.
He lost everything, his brothers,his wives,his children,and eventually,his beloved daughter,gave the Corleone Family business to Vincent, and died broken and alone.
It is not the path he was forced to choose, It is the wife he chose that done him in I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.but is it your position that Michael choosing Kay somehow caused him to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey? I meant choosing to marry her after returning from Sicily True he lost his first wife killed by the car bomb planted for him and Fredo because Vito stepped over him for his kid brother but no other grief if she had been like Carmela she'd have kept the family together no matter what 1. Anthony would have been at Law school 2. they wouldn't have been at the Opera where Mary was killed
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039675
09/02/22 08:21 PM
09/02/22 08:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
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Sonny's initiative bankroll hotel, send Fredo to learn legitimate casino business As hot headed as he was, his forward thinking set their legitimacy wheels in motion
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039676
09/02/22 08:23 PM
09/02/22 08:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
Underboss
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I find this perplexing that Vito would let Sonny's murder [machine gunned like a Swiss cheese] and Michael's attempted murder, resulting in his new wife, Apollonia's death [car bombed] go unanswered by Carlo and Barzini respectively How Kay know he married Apollonia I didn't think anyone other than Vito knew about Apollonia but Kay for someone who was banished, knew a lot of inside stuff even that Michael killed Fredo
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039680
09/03/22 12:04 AM
09/03/22 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777
Australia
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The path he chose,(and some may argue,the one that he was forced into),while noble, in the sense of protecting the Corleones, turned out to be the great tragedy of his life.
He lost everything, his brothers,his wives,his children,and eventually,his beloved daughter,gave the Corleone Family business to Vincent, and died broken and alone.
It is not the path he was forced to choose, It is the wife he chose that done him in I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.but is it your position that Michael choosing Kay somehow caused him to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey? I meant choosing to marry her after returning from Sicily True he lost his first wife killed by the car bomb planted for him and Fredo because Vito stepped over him for his kid brother but no other grief if she had been like Carmela she'd have kept the family together no matter what 1. Anthony would have been at Law school 2. they wouldn't have been at the Opera where Mary was killed As soon as Michael heard about Vito's shooting, Michael is the one 'unchoosing' Kay and then ended up having to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey The most significant difference between Michael's wife Kay and Vito's wife Carmela is, Carmela never questioned Vito about the business and Carmela's love, loyalty and support for Vito was unconditional So Vito never had to worry about their blood family at all and it is worth noting when Vito and Carmela married Vito was a law abiding shop employee in a Grocery store and only became Mafia after as opposed to when Michael and Kay married, Kay knew Michael was Mafia
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039681
09/03/22 12:04 AM
09/03/22 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
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Sonny's initiative bankroll hotel, send Fredo to learn legitimate casino business As hot headed as he was, his forward thinking set their legitimacy wheels in motion What would Sonny's role be, in their 'legitimate' world?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039707
09/03/22 06:44 PM
09/03/22 06:44 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
Underboss
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Carlo's a tough call. He's pretty much a goofus. I would think that the Corleones would want to make sure that Connie lived comfortably,and raised a nice family. So here's some speculation:
1) Set him up in a (legitimate) trucking or waste management business. Even as a front man,he could show income,pay taxes,etc.
2) This next one is a bit off the wall,but how about a Casino Host in one of Sonny's properties? Before you laugh too hard,consider this: Casino Hosts are the guys that recruit and cater to the "Whales" meaning the top high roller gamblers. Carlo has the wheel and deal personality,and could certainly develop connections to score high demand sold out tickets to sports or entertainment events. Other perks include luxury suites with a Butler and Personal Chef,private chopper flights to the Grand Canyon for romantic picnics with their female friends, 24 hr use of a Limo and Chauffeur, 5 figure "gifts" for Mr & Mrs Whale,etc,etc. The list goes on.
This job would keep him under the watchful eye of Sonny,provide a comfortable living for him and Connie,and generate a nice additional income in the way of tips. Hosts are legitimate hustlers in the Gaming Industry,and I think Carlo could do OK.
What do you all think?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039710
09/03/22 11:07 PM
09/03/22 11:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
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why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family. What was he concealing about Kay? He brought her to the wedding and dragged her into the family photo.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039711
09/03/22 11:31 PM
09/03/22 11:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
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All this begs a question: Was Michael a natural-born criminal? "A man has but one destiny," Vito said in the novel (about Sonny). Was Michael destined to lead a life of crime?
I've argued many times that Michael had choices at each and every crossroads in his life. He chose the criminal path every time. The shooting of his father impelled him to start on his life of crime by killing Mac and Sol. It did not compel him to kill them. He was not "forced" to protect Vito by killing them.
If Vito hadn't been shot, if the peaceful status quo prevailed, Vito lived a long life, and Sonny lived to succeed him, Michael probably would have married Ky, had kids, graduated from college, chosen a non-criminal career (law, teaching, perhaps) and generally kept at arm's length from his family. His criminal tendencies may have remained dormant for the rest of his life. But, Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power that was deep inside Michael. I don't think he relished violence, but he never shied away from it in pursuit of the power that led him down the criminal path. The personal tragedy of Michael's life was his obsession with legitimizing his criminal activities--he never accepted the reality that he was a criminal. It tormented him and made him live a life of lies for himself, his wife and his children.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039712
09/04/22 12:26 AM
09/04/22 12:26 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
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There is the classic slow motion gradual close-up shot of Michael,outlining his plan to kill Sol and Mac. This is the moment when we realize that the old idealistic Michael is gone forever. I do agree with Turnbull that Mike had choices,but only before he crossed the line. Afterwards, as with any Mob Chief,there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire, I will concede that he probably went too far with some i.e. Fredo,Roth. As for the 5 families murders,I don't know many options he had. Had he merely executed Tessio as a traitor,he still would have Barzini and his puppet Dons to deal with. I do feel that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated,so it wasn't always "just business" Even Tom,at one point asked Mike 'Do you have to wipe everybody out"? Bottom line,IMHO, Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the sociopath that he was.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039718
09/04/22 08:06 AM
09/04/22 08:06 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
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Had things turned differently,I think Mike would have settled down with Kay, raised a family,and pursued a very successful career in business,(perhaps Wall Street),or even in politics.
According to some articles I've seen,Mike expressed an interest in politics,even in childhood,and,wondered if there would ever be an Italian President. what articles The Godfather Wiki Fan Page is one. not in novel or movie He was dismissive another pezzonovante
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039719
09/04/22 08:31 AM
09/04/22 08:31 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
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Special
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Joined: Mar 2006
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No. Virginia
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why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family. What was he concealing about Kay? He brought her to the wedding and dragged her into the family photo. That he was going to marry Kay and "cut close ties with his family."
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039756
09/04/22 07:01 PM
09/04/22 07:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
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All this begs a question: Was Michael a natural-born criminal? "A man has but one destiny," Vito said in the novel (about Sonny). Was Michael destined to lead a life of crime?
I've argued many times that Michael had choices at each and every crossroads in his life. He chose the criminal path every time. The shooting of his father impelled him to start on his life of crime by killing Mac and Sol. It did not compel him to kill them. He was not "forced" to protect Vito by killing them.
If Vito hadn't been shot, if the peaceful status quo prevailed, Vito lived a long life, and Sonny lived to succeed him, Michael probably would have married Ky, had kids, graduated from college, chosen a non-criminal career (law, teaching, perhaps) and generally kept at arm's length from his family. His criminal tendencies may have remained dormant for the rest of his life. But, Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power that was deep inside Michael. I don't think he relished violence, but he never shied away from it in pursuit of the power that led him down the criminal path. The personal tragedy of Michael's life was his obsession with legitimizing his criminal activities--he never accepted the reality that he was a criminal. It tormented him and made him live a life of lies for himself, his wife and his children. He was "forced" to protect Vito by killing them The only one Sol would let near them Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed, it was not easy just to walk away He was a powerful man with responsibility for others Michael had the added impossible, unrealistic burden of Vito's obsession with legitimizing Vito's decades old criminal activities The personal tragedy of Michael's life was because of the wife he chose who became his horror that done him in She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039758
09/04/22 07:07 PM
09/04/22 07:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
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Underboss
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There is the classic slow motion gradual close-up shot of Michael,outlining his plan to kill Sol and Mac. This is the moment when we realize that the old idealistic Michael is gone forever. I do agree with Turnbull that Mike had choices,but only before he crossed the line. Afterwards, as with any Mob Chief,there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire, I will concede that he probably went too far with some i.e. Fredo,Roth. As for the 5 families murders,I don't know many options he had. Had he merely executed Tessio as a traitor,he still would have Barzini and his puppet Dons to deal with. I do feel that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated,so it wasn't always "just business" Even Tom,at one point asked Mike 'Do you have to wipe everybody out"? Bottom line,IMHO, Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the sociopath that he was. As Capri said, Mike had choices,but only before Sonny was killed Roth always be a threat to Michael and wouldn't have rested until he was dead No doubt Fredo could have been spared Don't know that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated, I reckon they were justified murders I don't feel I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. They hit him so -- He hit 'em back Roth started it! Could you expand on your opinion -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- how you reckon Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the supposed sociopath that he was?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039765
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Australia
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Mr Turnbull and Mr Para, I think you are being too harsh! on Michael How “Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power [if any!] that was deep inside Michael” or " impelled him to start on his life of crime"? Michael protecting his father by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey was at that stage, a one-off Besides Sonny was alive and it was Sonny who was always going to succeed Vito Michael was indeed "forced" to protect Vito by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey because Michael was “The only one Sol would let near them” as Sollozzo himself said to Sonny, Sollozzo wanted Michael to proposition - stall the Corleones with civilian Michael, to buy time and Michael's spot on strategy We can't wait I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo I believe Michael “accepted the reality that he was a criminal” because Michael told Geary “We're both part of the same hypocrisy” - Michael's choices were - Kill or be Killed
"Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed" “as with any Mob Chief, there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire” and they can never shy away from it not just to stay on Top but to stay alive
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039766
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Australia
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I reckon Sonny would have been boss in Nevada and de facto Don of Clemenza and Tessio It could work! Sonny gotta business to run He gotta kick asses sometimes to make it run right So with that famous temper of his, huh Sonny? can straighten things and people out.... Both Sonny and Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! too Though what to do with Carlo? Extract: 2) This next one is a bit off the wall,but how about a Casino Host in one of Sonny's properties? Sure thing Carlo is a hustler but a Casino Host in some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! Send Carlo, the Don's only son-in-law, to pick the “top high roller gamblers” up at the airport! This might stop Carlo hitting Connie though being “under the watchful eye of Sonny”
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039767
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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My take, for what it is worth! The only thing we know for sure, per the movie, is in a deleted scene, after Connie's wedding, when Vito and his sons visit the dying Genco in hospital. Vito asks Michael what his plans are, and Michael, obviously uncomfortable, says, "Finish school." Vito says he approves, and tells Michael to come to him after graduation. Michael turns away from Vito why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family Vito would have already seen him with Kay when he came to the wedding late and in his Marine uniform Nobody missed that!
Don't know Pete he may have disapproved of his American Girlfriend but I reckon there was nothing to conceal as their relationship was out in the open What was he concealing about Kay? He brought her to the wedding and dragged her into the family photo That he was going to marry Kay and "cut close ties with his family." Michael's “close ties with his family." among others - Extracts: Sonny: Your country's not your blood -- you remember that Michael: I don't feel that way. Sonny: Well if you don't feel that way why don't you just quit college and go to -- go to join the Army Michael: I did -- I enlisted in the Marines [Everyone is silent] Tom: Michael, why -- why didn't you come to us? I mean Pop had to pull a lot of strings to get you a deferment Michael: I didn't ask for a deferment -- and I didn't want it After the 'punch up' Sonny: Nice -- real nice -- break your fathers heart on his birthday - quit College and enlisted in the Marines in defiance of his father's big plans and high hopes for him
- Michael stayed put and remained seated all by himself when everyone else hurried to greet Vito at Vito's surprise birthday party
- Michael came to Carlo and Connie's wedding late and in his Marine uniform, hand in hand, flaunting, his American girlfriend, Kay and sat away from everyone
- Kay, an outsider 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant' WASP was also considered to be too forward or similar for an unmarried woman
Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered? 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039781
09/05/22 02:28 PM
09/05/22 02:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
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Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered?, 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
In 1940, as the US ramped up military preparedness, the War Department started drafting young men into the Army--the largest of the military services. The Navy and Marine Corps relied on volunteers. Michael volunteered for the Marine Corps. His deferment from the Army draft was irrelevant to the Marines because he volunteered. Vito probably bribed, or had Tom bribe, a doctor to certify to Michael's Draft Board that Michael had some physical or mental condition that would render him unfit for military service. He might not have told Michael about it simply because he assumed that Michael wouldn't, or shouldn't, want to be drafted That was before Pearl Harbor.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039806
09/05/22 10:02 PM
09/05/22 10:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
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OP
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No doubt it is nice, fun to flesh out the different opinions, interpretations, speculations, knowledge of the Forum members, in the spirit of the Board which keeps us conversing half a century on
My two cents worth! I reckon all the killings were justified even Fredo's, in view of this is the business they've chosen and they all know the consequences of what will happen as a result of their betrayal I believe, a man like Roth would risk going through it all again and again until he had Michael destroyed or dead This is the man who didn't care if women and children were killed as long as Michael was
He still had his 300 million, Questadt, Geary and he'd always remain a dangerous foe, stone in Michael's shoe and I reckon, needs to be wiped out Get him -- let's get him now, while they can
While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
No doubt Fredo could have been spared as we'd debated that Michael could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died
Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039807
09/05/22 11:07 PM
09/05/22 11:07 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
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No doubt it is nice, fun to flesh out the different opinions, interpretations, speculations, knowledge of the Forum members, in the spirit of the Board which keeps us conversing half a century on
My two cents worth! I reckon all the killings were justified even Fredo's, in view of this is the business they've chosen and they all know the consequences of what will happen as a result of their betrayal I believe, a man like Roth would risk going through it all again and again until he had Michael destroyed or dead This is the man who didn't care if women and children were killed as long as Michael was
He still had his 300 million, Questadt, Geary and he'd always remain a dangerous foe, stone in Michael's shoe and I reckon, needs to be wiped out Get him -- let's get him now, while they can
While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
No doubt Fredo could have been spared as we'd debated that Michael could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died
Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039809
09/06/22 03:10 AM
09/06/22 03:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
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The personal tragedy of Michael's life was because of the wife he chose who became his horror that done him in She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman Kay Biggest hypocrite
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039810
09/06/22 03:13 AM
09/06/22 03:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
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While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039811
09/06/22 03:16 AM
09/06/22 03:16 AM
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Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
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The prostitute in the brothel was slaughtered horribly so Mike could put the screws to Geary. This was an innocent girl who was treated like garbage by Mike. She was murdered and presumably dumped in a landfill,lake or shallow grave. And for what?
Why Tom get a pass? While some of the killings that Mike ordered could be justified as "self defense" and strictly business, the reason I consider him an incipient psycho are the ones that weren't necessary.
Fredo didn't have to die. Mike could have given him a pass and exiled him from the Family. Who but a true sociopath would kill his own brother. Of course Mad Sam DeStefano killed his own brother,but that kind of makes my point.
Why Fredo get a pass? same logic Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039816
09/06/22 08:49 AM
09/06/22 08:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass Why Tom get a pass?...
Why Fredo get a pass? At least speaking of this forum, I don't think that they get passes. Fredo, in particular, is seen much more darkly here than seems to be presented in the movie. Why some seem to get a pass in the movie itself is more of a "how." One technique is just using emotion, like Fredo in the boathouse, to create sympathy. Another is to show something completed, as with the prostitute's murder, so that Tom and Fredo aren't actually shown participating. The audience can only process so much in real time.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039818
09/06/22 09:02 AM
09/06/22 09:02 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
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Pittsburgh, PA
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Great thread! Catching up a bit... He was "forced" to protect Vito by killing them. the only one because Sol only meet Michael to proposition Mike had choices,but only before Sonny was killed Michael had choices all along. Hard choices, maybe, but still choices. Sure, Michael killing Sol and McCluskey himself was expedient but was it really necessary? The Family knew hours in advance where the meeting was going to be. It was a restaurant that was open to the public. Why not have some of their operatives eating dinner there and have them kill Sol and Mac? Why not have the hundred buttonmen Sonny bragged about make a frontal assault on the restaurant while Michael was in the bathroom? Sol and Mac had no idea that the Corleones knew where they were going to be (or that anyone would dare to kill Mac) so they wouldn't have had much security with them. It was Michael's desire to control things that made him unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac. But it wasn't the only way. I meant choosing to marry her after returning from Sicily
True he lost his first wife killed by the car bomb planted for him and Fredo because Vito stepped over him for his kid brother but no other grief if she had been like Carmela she'd have kept the family together no matter what
1. Anthony would have been at Law school 2. they wouldn't have been at the Opera where Mary was killed I don't know about that. Vito and Carmella were the prototypical Mafia couple, but they still had a son go so far as to enlist in the Marines and marry a WASP. One of the sub-themes in the Trilogy is the tension between assimilating into American society and retaining Old World values. Maybe Michael and, say, Apollonia would not have gotten a divorce but their son would be even more "American" than Michael was, so he still would most likely have wanted to forge his own path rather than accede to Michael's wish for him to become a lawyer.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039846
09/06/22 08:04 PM
09/06/22 08:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
Underboss
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OP
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Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass Why Tom get a pass?...
Why Fredo get a pass? At least speaking of this forum, I don't think that they get passes. Fredo, in particular, is seen much more darkly here than seems to be presented in the movie. Why some seem to get a pass in the movie itself is more of a "how." One technique is just using emotion, like Fredo in the boathouse, to create sympathy. Another is to show something completed, as with the prostitute's murder, so that Tom and Fredo aren't actually shown participating. The audience can only process so much in real time. As regards people getting a pass, I reckon, Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses He too was a cold blooded murderer despite his outward nice guy appearances like his threat of lethal force even in such simple business as the release of his Godson's contract We can be brutal to Mike that an innocent girl was slaughtered horribly and treated like garbage but no mention of Tom We are still debating Fredo could have been spared
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039847
09/06/22 08:07 PM
09/06/22 08:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 572
Evita
OP
Underboss
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OP
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Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ? I have, what am I missing?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039853
09/07/22 12:03 AM
09/07/22 12:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Posts: 777
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Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered?, 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
In 1940, as the US ramped up military preparedness, the War Department started drafting young men into the Army--the largest of the military services. The Navy and Marine Corps relied on volunteers. Michael volunteered for the Marine Corps. His deferment from the Army draft was irrelevant to the Marines because he volunteered. Vito probably bribed, or had Tom bribe, a doctor to certify to Michael's Draft Board that Michael had some physical or mental condition that would render him unfit for military service. He might not have told Michael about it simply because he assumed that Michael wouldn't, or shouldn't, want to be drafted That was before Pearl Harbor. Thanks Turnbull My misunderstanding, defiance is inaccurate Vito secured the Army draft deferment for Michael, not anticipating that Michael would end up volunteering with the Marines Michael didn't know Vito had secured him the Army draft deferment when Michael went to enlist with the Marines What about Sonny, Tom and Fredo? They were all able bodied young men fit for military service too Did Vito also manage to secure Army draft deferment for all of them
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039854
09/07/22 12:03 AM
09/07/22 12:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
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Australia
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Extract: The prostitute in the brothel was slaughtered horribly so Mike could put the screws to Geary. This was an innocent girl who was treated like garbage by Mike. She was murdered and presumably dumped in a landfill,lake or shallow grave. And for what? 250,000 dollars Plus a monthly payment of 5% of the gross -- of all four hotels and Free gaming license Michael: Uh, senator -- you can have my answer now if you like My offer is this -- nothing Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally And before anyone slaughters! me.... Working Girl MurderI would say everyone is a reprehensible character varying only in accordance to their horrendous acts
The Geary, innocent working girl murder in which Tom himself played a big part, was beyond evil indeed All just to get Geary in the Corleones pocket that the girl's life was worthless "as if she never existed" the cruellest of them all
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039856
09/07/22 02:28 AM
09/07/22 02:28 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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What about Sonny, Tom and Fredo? They were all able bodied young men fit for military service too Did Vito also manage to secure Army draft deferment for all of them
Of course. He could have bribed doctors to certify that they were "unfit" for service. Or he could have gotten one of his judges or politicians inform their Draft Board that they were "key employees" of the Genco Pura Olive Oil Company, and that without them, the company would go out of business, harming the war economy and putting other employees out of work. Another approach: Vito gave them "key positions" in the labor unions he controlled. Since the cooperation of unions was vital to the war effort, Vito's politicians would have no trouble convincing Draft Boards to grant them deferments or exemptions. Jimmy Hoffa, the Teamsters' powerhouse, used that ploy to escape the draft during WWII.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039871
09/07/22 12:36 PM
09/07/22 12:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 337
Capri
Capo
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Capo
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True Michael was unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac because it was the only foolproof way.
I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it was short notice They were panicking that they didn't know where the meeting was going to be when they were eating dinner
Suddenly if there is a lot of activity at and around the restaurant and more than usual men dining there even for the best veal in the city, I reckon it would attract unwanted attention
Also it is fleshed out in the novel, Sol had his people check the restaurant out, bathroom and all and a man was actually dining there, keeping watch
As regards a frontal assault, Sol could have had people guarding the restaurant too Too many variables like Sollozzo might not even be in the car
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039906
09/08/22 12:04 AM
09/08/22 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
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Australia
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Is this the most cunning of "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" Connie to Michael: And you stood Godfather to our baby -- you lousy cold-hearted bastard
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039915
09/08/22 08:54 AM
09/08/22 08:54 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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Special
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Is this the most cunning of "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" Connie to Michael: And you stood Godfather to our baby -- you lousy cold-hearted bastard As the book informs, Michael didn't want to do this. Connie nags Kay, Kay nags Michael. Michael agrees, but tells Kay that it doesn't fix Connie's real problem - which is that she married the wrong type of guy. He doesn't feign close friendship with Carlo.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1039940
09/08/22 06:25 PM
09/08/22 06:25 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
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Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ? I have, what am I missing? I didn't mean to imply that you were missing anything. I just thought as a GF fan,you'd get a kick out of all the story lines that didn't make it to the film.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1040041
09/10/22 11:02 PM
09/10/22 11:02 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,402
Lou_Para
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Thank you Lou and you are not wrong For clarity, I thought I had missed something, being always hungry for and getting a kick out anything Godfather except Puzo droning on and on about Lucy, Fontane and Genco
As regards the story lines, from what I remember, 1. Luca Brasi's how evil he was and why he was so loyal to Vito 2. paedophile Woltz
this kind of makes my point about how Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses 1. as long as Luca was killing for him, his baby can be thrown into a fiery furnace while still alive 2. as long as Woltz gave the movie part to his Godson, he can keep molesting children
Neri's how brutal he was and why he was so loyal to Michael I couldn't agree more about the ponderous Lucy surgery storyline. Another great part of the novel was the whole Bocchicchio saga. Professional hostages,hell of a way to make a living.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1040190
09/14/22 12:06 AM
09/14/22 12:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 777
Australia
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The negotiator / hostage for Michael-Sollozzo meeting, for Michael's safe return! Clemenza: He's over at my place playin' pinochle with a couple of my men He's happy, they're lettin' him win...Bonus! If my memory serves me right, a Bocchicchio who'd already murdered his former colleagues, for betraying him, in some scam business deal or similar, took the rap for Sollozzo and McCluskey killings that cleared Michael of all these 'false' charges
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1040194
09/14/22 01:33 AM
09/14/22 01:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
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In both the movie and the novel, a Bo hostage guaranteed Michael's safety when he met with Sol and Mac. The novel says that, in addition, Felix Bo enabled Michael's freedom from prosecution for the two murders when the eturned by confessing to the murders.. Novel also says the Bo's supplied hostages for all the families attending the Commission meeting. As Lou said: hell of a way to make a living. But, the Bo's made a hell of a good sidestory, and added some Sicilian "color." Incidentally, there was a real-life Felix Bocchicchio. He had a rap sheet as long as your arm and was in the boxing racket with Frankie (Mr. Gray") Carbo.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1040288
09/16/22 02:58 AM
09/16/22 02:58 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
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very lucrative too They get a hefty fee and as I remember, no Bocchicchio hostage was ever harmed The novel states that "...since the Bochicchios were so primitive, they never let anything, any kind of punishment, stand in their way of vengeance. They would give up their own lives and there was no protection against them if they were betrayed." I inferred from that comment that Bo hostages must have been killed, and the Bo's wrought vengeance, for them to have earned that reputation.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1040355
09/17/22 08:28 PM
09/17/22 08:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 88 Adelaide, Australia
lucab19
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I think that is exactly what Turnbull is saying; they earned their fearsome reputation.
Anyway, on a slightly different note, there is a nice little counterpoint between the movie and the novel concerning the Bocchicchio's. From the movie when Clemenza is schooling Mike about the Sollozzo hit:
CLEMENZA All right, you shot 'em both...now what do you do?
MICHAEL Sit down, finish my dinner...
CLEMENZA Come on kid, don't fool around...
In the novel, specifically the section about the Bocchicchio clan and their history:
In any case, Felix Bocchicchio was released from prison after serving three years, went home and kissed his wife and three children and lived peacefully for a year, and then showed that he was of the Bocchicchio clan after all. Without any attempt to conceal his guilt, he procured a weapon, a pistol, and shot his lawyer friend to death. He then searched out the two businessmen and calmly shot them both through the head as they came out of a luncheonette. He left the bodies lying in the street and went into the luncheonette and ordered a cup of coffee which he drank while he waited for the police to come and arrest him.
Last edited by lucab19; 09/17/22 08:30 PM.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1040367
09/17/22 11:06 PM
09/17/22 11:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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No. Virginia
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Anyway, on a slightly different note, there is a nice little counterpoint between the movie and the novel concerning the Bocchicchio's. That's a nice catch!
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1040370
09/17/22 11:36 PM
09/17/22 11:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
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No. Virginia
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In the movie,while the Corleones are waiting to send Michael to the Sol hit,there is a mention of the "negotiator" playing pinochle with Clems men,amd that until Mike comes back safe and sound,he keeps playing cards. I wonder if Coppola used that phrasing instead of 'hostage' to avoid going into an explanation of the Bo's. I think by this time in the production, only stuff really critical to the story was going to be included. The book does use "negotiator" as well as "hostage." It would sound pretty odd to say the hostage is happy, they're letting him win. When he was annotating the novel, Coppola just crossed out pages related to the Boccicchio. It could be that he didn't even process that the Sollozzo hostage was a Bocchicchio.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1040373
09/18/22 12:07 AM
09/18/22 12:07 AM
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Kangaroo Don
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Extract: Another great part of the novel was the whole Bocchicchio saga. Professional hostages,hell of a way to make a living The negotiator / hostage for Michael-Sollozzo meeting, for Michael's safe return! Clemenza: He's over at my place playin' pinochle with a couple of my men He's happy, they're lettin' him win...Bonus! If my memory serves me right, a Bocchicchio who'd already murdered his former colleagues, for betraying him, in some scam business deal or similar, took the rap for Sollozzo and McCluskey killings that cleared Michael of all these 'false' charges I am confused! So who hires these negotiator / hostage? The one playin' pinochle, at Clemenza's place, presumably for Michael's safe return was hired by Sollozzo or the Corleones
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1040374
09/18/22 12:28 AM
09/18/22 12:28 AM
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Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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I am confused! So who hires these negotiator / hostage?
The one playin' pinochle, at Clemenza's place, presumably for Michael's safe return was hired by Sollozzo or the Corleones He was hired by Sollozzo, in an agreement made with the Bocchicchio Family. If Michael was harmed during the meeting, the Corleones would kill the hostage. The Boccicchio would blame Sollozzo for loss of their kinsman, and seek revenge against him.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1040570
09/22/22 08:15 AM
09/22/22 08:15 AM
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Posts: 1,466 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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The Bo familymade for one of best side stories in the novel, but it was pure fiction. I've seen an interview where Puzo said he did some research into Sicilian mafia. I've always wondered if the Bocchicchio reflected that in some way. One issue with the Bocchicchio narrative is that at the start of the novel everyone's been at peace for ten years. Bad time for professional hostages.
Last edited by mustachepete; 09/22/22 08:15 AM.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1040629
09/22/22 09:00 PM
09/22/22 09:00 PM
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Evita
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Thanks Pete So that's why the Bocchicchios get their fee paid in advance!
There was no hostage for Sollozzo because civilian Michael was no threat
As a matter of interest, if a meeting is arranged, say, between two warring families, do they hire hostages, for - 1. each other or 2. themselves I reckon it is all about guaranteeing the safety of their Guest. I don't think they hire hostages for themselves So depending on the circumstances, I reckon, Vito would hire the hostage for the other family because he is the formidable, bigger threat same as Sollozzo did for civilian Michael
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Evita]
#1062451
06/24/23 09:00 PM
06/24/23 09:00 PM
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Evita
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backfired plans he was not forced into as we debated, in Was Michael a tragic figure? thread,
Kay Michael seeking Kay out, his horror of a wife Bet hypocrite Kay never told Anthony about his unborn brother she murdered
Frankie Pentangeli It was indeed unbecoming of a Don 1. Michael “undercut Pentangeli through his support of the Rosato Brothers” against his own man 2. Michael gave his loyalty to a Jew [Roth] before his own blood 3. Michael asked Pentangeli to lay down - settle these troubles - to the Rosato Brothers who spit right in Pentangeli's face 4. Michael threw Pentangeli [good old man -- who was loyal to Vito, Michael's father and to Michael, for years] under the bus 5. then abandonment of his 'dead' capo's family
Fredo no excuse whatsoever for “Fredo’s betrayal;” for something in it for me -- on my own, the Donship Nevertheless Michael could have spared Fredo
Mary Michael surrounded by his family, was parading himself and his family in public, so out in the open even at the steps of the Opera house in Sicily, in the night, in full view of anyone lurking knowing Mosca, the assassin who had never failed thus far, was contracted to murder him and that Mosca had already murdered Don Tommasino Go figure!
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