I'm not arguing with you Furio, but the Genovese and Gambino's weren't in our discussion. There is no way the Perna's have 20-30 made men in NJ, no way. That may have ben true years ago, not now. If you want to change my mind about that you'd have to provide facts, like names and locations they operate in NJ. Having a crew in NJ doesn't make you strong or big. So change my mind with specifics. The Perna's may still be alive, and around, and in fact not all that bright since the one son went to jail for hauling a bunch of marijuana in a car in plain site but that's another argument. But that doesn't mean they're all that relevant but I can be convinced with specifics that I'm not aware of.