As we know at the Senate hearing willi Cicci gives evidence against the family as did pentangila.

We know Pentangila kills himself before the corleone's could get to him.Would there have beeen a vendetta against Cicci. or was he put into protection as we never see Willi Cicci again in the movie.

Anybody know!

well in this case you have to use your imagination. but in my honest opinion i think that they put him into witness protection program. i mean he already testified, not like frankie who was able to be stopped before airing all the dirty laundry.

well in this case you have to use your imagination. but in my honest opinion i think that they put him into witness protection program. i mean he already testified, not like frankie who was able to be stopped before airing all the dirty laundry.

The Witness Protection Program started in 1970, some 11 years after Willie Cicci testified.

My guess is he was sentenced (with some time "off" for co-operating with the authorities) to prison, where he spent years fighting off the advances of big girly-men.

SC,
Don't you think that it is possible that Willie got the same deal as Pentangelli did with regards to living on an Army base?

You know something, this shows another flaw in the writing with regards to Willie Cicci. While I understand the his testimony really did not do any damage because Pentangelli did NOT cooborate it, the bottom line is that he still turned rat against The Corleone's , and his situation should have been addressed by Michael, Tom, Neri and Rocco in that final meeting.


Don Cardi

You're right. Mike was like a shark in a feeding frenzy then (making sure all his enemies were being dealt with). The fact that Willie Cicci was left out of Mike's retribution is surprising, and suggests to me that it was overlooked by Coppola.

I think Michael may have given Cicci a pass because Cicci deliberately lied under oath to help and protect Michael at the Senate hearing. After Cicci admitted that he was a killer, Geary asked if he'd ever gotten a direct order from Michael, and Cicci replied, "No, I never talked to him." But we know otherwise: during the Great Massacre of 1955, when Tessio was about to be taken for a ride, Cicci comes out and says, "Sal, Tom: the boss says for you to go on ahead... [emphasis added]. So, as we see, he really did get orders from Michael. If Cicci had told that story to the Senate committee, he'd have provided a direct link to Michael and murder.

Gee, I thought everyone knew that Willie Cicci moved to Philly, got a nice new Caddy, and started a loan sharking business, using Rocky Balboa as his "muscle"

Excellent point Turnbull. I never looked at it that way.


Don Cardi

Cicci got orders directly from Mike atleast in the first movie when Tessio was discovered as a traitor, Cicci was the one who whacked him off camera. But nontheless Cicci is a snitch. He told them of Mike's involvement in the murders of Sollozzo and McClusky and the fact that Mike heads the most powerful Crime Family in America. And that the New York branch of the Corleone still serves Mike.

Do you think Tessio was Garroted or shot or any other way.

We never see Willie Cicci say that Mike was directly involved in the killing of McClusky and Sollozo. However when Mike testifies, the Senator who is questioning Mike states that he has sworn testimony that Michael was involved in those murders. I believe that the sworn testimony that the Senator is reffering to is from Willie Cicci.
My personal feeling, as I have said in other posts, is that Cicci got the same deal that Pentangelli did, living under the protection of an army base.

Don Cardi

It's a pity we don't know for sure.

Cicci remains loyal to Michael, so I guess he was treated differently than Pentangeli. Remember Cicci shot at one of the Rosato's (the one in the car), so he must've got this problem at his hand (trial etc, no special treatment), now that he decided not to break omerta.

This is revealed in The Godfather Returns novel coming out this month... (see that separate forum for more details)

I'm only 1/4 of the way thru it, so don't know if Cicci is addressed or not yet...

Should be a craker

The sworn testimony that the Senator refers to is from Pentangeli, not Cicci. He refers to it after Pentangeli renounced his affidavit at said it was all lies.

You're basing your argument on what I feel is another example of Parts I and II not being in sync.

We know there have been a few examples of some of that Senate hearing facts not being correct (ie. the date of when Mike shot Sollozzo and McCluskey). I think this (about Cicci getting direct orders from Mike) is another example of a rushed screenplay. Yes, its true, Cicci DID say that in Part I, but I feel the writers chose to forget that in penning his dialogue for the Senate hearing.

My main "defense" for my argument is the way Cicci "spit out" the name Michael Corleone when asked who the head of the Family was. Cicci said the name with a vengeance.

In short, I think Cicci was trying to do as much damage to Mike as possible.

The sworn testimony is from Cicci. Sure Pantangeli snitche dto but the senator was reffering to what cicci as the witness who testified that mike was personally involved with the captains murder and with him sollozzo.

The sworn testimony is not from Cicci, who denied getting any direct orders from Michael. The sworn testimony is from Pentangeli. Here is the relevant exact dialog, from JG's GF site:

QUESTADT You mean you kill people.
CICCI I what?
QUESTADT You kill people at the -- uh -- at the behest of your superiors?
CICCI Yea -- that's right Counselor.
QUESTADT And the head -- of your family -- is MICHAEL Corleone.
CICCI Yea, Counselor -- MICHAEL Corleone -- right.
CHAIRMAN Did you ever get such an order directly from MICHAEL Corleone.
CICCI No -- I never talked to him.

(Later—when Pentangeli is sworn in):

CHAIRMAN We have here finally a witness that will further testify to MICHAEL Corleone's rule over a crime empire that controls all the gambling in this country and perhaps other countries. This witness has had no buffer between himself and MICHAEL Corleone. He can corroborate our charges on enough counts for this committee to recommend a count of perjury against MICHAEL Corleone. SENATOR.
SENATOR Mr. PENTANGELI -- Mr. PENTANGELI. Were you a member of the Corleone family? Did you serve under Caporegime Peter CLEMENZA -- under VITO Corleone -- also known as -- "The Godfather"?
PENTANGELI I -- I -- I never know no Godfather.I got my own family, SENATOR.
QUESTADT Mr. PENTANGELI you are contradicting a sworn statement that you previously made to me and signed. I ask you again sir -- you are now under oath -- were you at any time a member of a crime organization -- headed by MICHAEL Corleone.
PENTANGELI I don't know nothin' about that.. Oh -- I was in the Olive Oil business with his father but that was a long time ago that's all.
CHAIRMAN We have a sworn affidavit -- we have it -- your sworn affidavit that you murdered on the orders of MICHAEL Corleone. Do you deny that confession, and do you realize what will happen as a result of your denial.
PENTANGELI Look the FBI guys promised me a deal. So I made up a lot of stuff about MICHAEL Corleone 'cause that's what they wanted -- but it was all lies -- uh -- everything. And I kept saying -- MICHAEL Corleone did this and MICHAEL Corleone did that -- .uh -- so I said yea sure, why not.

I agree with Turnbull. If you notice before Cicci laughed and said family had a lot of buffers to show he never get any direct order from Mike, his attorney was whispering something in his ear showing he did not want to give senate enough information to link Michael to these murders. My understanding is that he was captured at the crime scene after he was hit by car so he had to give the police something considering that the bartender has already mentioned Michael Corleone says hello to police but he made sure they would not be able to use it against Mike because he knew wherever he goes Mike would eventually get to him and will kill him.

I agree with you on the way Cicci spit out the name, but had he wished to do as much damage as possible to Michael, he simply could have lied about their relationship and embellished the details of his dealings with Michael.

Also, in addition to Tessio's last scene, when Cicci comments "The boss said to go on ahead", which would imply that he did get a direct order from Michael, we should remember that he was also present during the boathouse conversation between MC and Pentangelli the night of the Tahoe party.

While that conversation did not include any direct orders to commit murder, there was plenty of testimony Cicci could have given about the "family" being a criminal conspiracy of which Michael was the head.

The exchange between Tessio and Cicci from Geoff's transcript is:

Tessio and Tom leave the house. Willie Cicci stops them.

CICCI: Sal -- Tom -- the Boss says he'll come in a separate car. He says for you two to go on ahead...

TESSIO: Hell, he can't do that -- it screws up all my arrangements!

CICCI: Well, that's what he said.

This to me strongly suggests that Michael gave the direct order to Cicci to whack Tessio

This may be getting to the stage where analysis is paralysis but in GFII CICCIO tries to destroy Vito and fails only to pay the ultimate price years later, then CICCI tries to destroy Michael and fails....only to pay the ultimate price years later???

I agree with Senza. And Cicci did give his own testimony.

CHAIRMAN: We have testimony from a witness one named Willi Cicci. He states that you are head of the most powerful Mafia family in the country. Are you?
MIKE: no I'm not.
CHAIRMAN: The witness has testified that you are personally responsible for the murder of a NYC Police Captain in 1947 and with him a man named Virgil Sollozzo. Do you denie this?

See What I mean? Cicci did give his own testimony.

Yes Turnbull, I remember that. But after Cicci gives his testimony, doesn't the Senator say that he has is going to produce another witness that will cooberate the charges against Michael? By stating that he has a witness to cooberate the charges against Michael, isn't he inferring that he now has two different people testifying to the same things? I take that as Cicci and Pentangelli cooberating each others testimony. I would have to believe that when the attempt on Pentangeli's life was made, and Cicci found out that "Michael Corleone sent his regards," that Cicci was disgusted with the Corleone's and decided to testify against Michael. While he didn't DIRECTLY implicate Michael in his testimony, Cicci still revealed, like Joe Valachi did in real life, the structure and inner workings of The Family business. That in itself had to enrage Michael. The key to getting Michael off the hook was to get to one of the witnesses, which turned out to be Pentangelli, and somehow make that witness change his testimony so that two witnesses could NOT cooberate each others testimony.


Don Cardi

This is a direct quote from the script, when Pentangeli appears before the committee:

"We have here finally a witness [Pentangeli] that will further testify to MICHAEL Corleone's rule over a crime empire that controls all the gambling in this country and perhaps other countries. This witness has had no buffer between himself and MICHAEL Corleone. He can corroborate our charges on enough counts for this committee to recommend a count of perjury against MICHAEL Corleone." [emphasis added in both cases]

The committee was trying to establish a case of perjury against Michael. The committee did not have the power to try Michael for any of the felonies the members accused him of (assassinating the heads of the Five Families in 1950 [sic], running all the gambling in America, etc.). The committee did have the power to cite him for perjury if he lied under oath while testifying before them. The "beauty" of Roth's scheme that Hagen referred to was that the committee tricked Michael into thinking that Cicci was the top-ranking witness against him. When Cicci said, "I never talked to him," Michael wrongly believed that no one could directly link him to any crimes, and so he was emboldened to lie under oath. That's why the chairman said that Pentangeli, who, unlike Cicci, had no buffers between him and Michael, would corroborate "... our charges"--not "Cicci's charges," or even "the charges..." If Frankie had corroborated the committee's charges, Michael could have gone to prison for five years on each count of perjury without ever going to trial for any of the felonies he'd been accused of by the committee.
The fact remains: Cicci had the opportunity to confirm that he got direct orders from Michael, and he lied and said, "No, I never talked to him." That's why the committee needed Pentangeli.

Here's another one for you to chew on: Geary may have helped set Michael up for the perjury charges. As a committee member, Geary had to know that they were holding Pentangeli in reserve--which Michael didn't know. So when he asked Cicci if he'd ever gotten a direct order from Michael, Geary may very well have been anticipating that Cicci would deny it, thereby lulling Michael into thinking he could get away with lying under oath.

And yet ANOTHER example of poor follow-up writing (and plot development) in Part II. How the hell is it possible that none of the cops on the Corleone payroll got in touch with Mike with the news that Pentangeli was still alive?

(some later dialogue):
CUT TO: The compound TOM is leaning against a brick wall.

MICHAEL
Alive -- PENTANGELI is alive. How'd they get their hands on him?

TOM
ROTH. He engineered it MICHAEL. Frankie went to make a deal with the Rosato Brothers -- and they tried to kill him. Our people with the New York detectives said he was half dead, scared stiff, and calling out loud that you'd turned on him. They'd already had him on possession, bookmaking, murder 1, and a lot more. (emphasis added).

Despite all these loose ends (ie. "Michael Corleone says hello", who killed the Tahoe assassins, how Clemenza died, innacurate dates that the Senate Committee had, etc.) Coppola STILL managed to make an absolutely wonderful movie. Go figure.

Turnbull, I lost you here. If I understand correctly you are saying that they wanted Michael to lie under the oath. What I think is, if committee had proved that Michael has personally ordered or done those murders then they could bring him to the court of law. He could have taken the 5th and not to come to the Senate hearing. If he would have taken the 5th, which what I think Frankie and Senate hoped and counted on; they did not have to produce a witness with a sworn statement to testify in front of Michael as he challenged them to do so.

Here is the script:

PENTANGELI

Ten to one -- ten to one shot you said -- ten to one shot he would take the 5th -- and I lose. You sound like my bookie. That I don't got monkey in my life.

Exactly! And how come Tom didn't know about it? Michael is stunned: "Frank Pentangeli is alive!" Tom says, "Our people with the New York detectives say he was half dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him... YOU opened yourself up to five counts of perjury" [emphasis added].
"You"???? Where was our brilliant consigliere when all this was going down? How come he didn't check in with his "people with the New York detectives before the hearing? First he advises his client not to take the Fifth, then tells him, "YOU opened yourself up to five counts of perjury."