If I got someone pregnant, I'd consider myself a juvenile asshole for possibly ruining the future I strived for. But I simply wouldn't tell her to abort it, because I see it the same way as killing a human, which is probably hard for you to believe. I don't think of it as some pre-existent presence.

There are a few guys and girls I know at school who feel the same way, and oddly enough they are the more mature of the people I usually talk to. One day I overheard the guy in a couple say "mission aborted" referring to the situation if he got her pregnant. Things like this piss me off.

If I was in that situation I wouldn't be running from a problem as a convenience. I'd simply have to adjust my life for this huge change.

Then again, there are children dying in the crossfire of war, so I should be guilty over my selfish stance.

I certainly understand and believe that you feel that way now.

All I'm saying is that I don't see how you can be so certain you'd feel the same way if you actually were in that situation.

Or how how you can be so certain you'd feel the same way about abortion if you actually were the person who could possibly get pregnant.

If you want to state that you are certain you would feel the same way, that's fine. Go ahead and do so, but I honestly don't see how anyone can be certain about what their feelings would be in a situation which they've never had to face.

You may think you know, but can you really be sure?

Of course I can't be sure. Last time I checked, doing the wrong thing was a standard human characteristic. I'm not going to say I'm some perfect person when it comes to judging these things. I can sit here all day and state what I believe is the right thing and how I would try to do it, but of course much of us resort to the wrong things we regret. I guess this quote can apply perfectly to your side of the debate.

See, Mr. Gitts, most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and the right place, they're capable of...anything. - Chinatown

That statement perfectly applies to my side of the debate even more.

Thank you. I rest my case.

To Afsanah:

So do terrorists, or the particular target in question, coincidentally.

However, aiming a bomb at Al Qaeda's media house is certainly not the same as killing your own child.

That would be cause and effect, not collateral damage, perhaps focusing on intent would be more proper in this case.

There is no intent to kill children during bombings. Does it happen? Regrettably so.

There is deliberate intent to kill children through abortion.

Firstly, if it is your statement, I would think that the burden of responsibility would fall upon yourself.

Secondly, I break up messages not to spin or confuse (I didn't realize the "quote" brackets made it so hard for you to delineate), but rather, to dissect each individual statement and its merit (or lack thereof).

You're saying that conservatives, like myself, quote, "try to eliminate the SSO altogether." However, I would think this is grossly incorrect, especially since most (if not all) conservative platforms advocate moderate-to-heavy reform rather than total elimination.

My point was that the groups I mentioned don't want to tear down America - but there are sects within them that wish to do so.

Similarly, your claim that Republicans want to eliminate social security is flawed in the same way - do some of them want this to happen? Probably. But does the majority? No.

Please don't apologize.

It warms my heart that one less Iranian wishes to emigrate to my fine country. Please continue to enjoy the mullahs, fatwahs, the Ayatollah's, and the Roses of the Prophet Mohammed. It shant be long before Iran decides to either war with Iraq or another neighbor, or go on an Israeli-killing spree, lending itself to annihilation from the Hebrews.

Cheers. We've already got enough anti-Americanism in this country as it is.

Actually, I think it comes down to those of us like Mad Johnny and myself who believe in the sanctity of innocent life (requisite qualifying statement should we happen to have the inevitable discussion on the death penalty for the 1000th time), and those like Afsanah and yourself who believe in the sanctity of convenient immorality and murder shadowed in the name of "women's rights."

Mad Johnny - Oh, most certainly, at the very least, castration would be in order.

To Plaw:

What about the elderly or the disabled then? If they are unable to make their own decisions regarding living, why can't we just hook them up to a suicide machine and decrease the surplus population?

Well, though I'm not advocating or supporting it, there is a thing called "female circumcision."

Do a Google search for Charlie Rangel.

Are you disagreeing with the idea that the poor and minorities are overrepresented in the Armed Forces?

I haven't heard the term. Though, I know there is some antimosity towards people from Long Island, deriving from what I have no idea.

Wouldn't you say there is a difference in what I said and what you are implying?

I said: "...my desire to leave Iraq immediately."

You said: "...everyone wants us out of Iraq ASAP."

There is no "ASAP" or "finishing the job" in my belief. They hate us over there. We've removed Saddam, and ensured he can't threaten us. Actually, we've given Iran a little present, since we know they've been trying to knock of Iraq for ages. I want us out of there right now, as in, yes, President Bush, initiate the recall code, and bring them home.

I did. I actually favored black ops, but...liberals frown upon that sort of thing nowadays.

Why? We still have plenty of troops in reserve (unlike Vietnam, which, as you said, was a way to get out of going to 'Nam).

I'm sure President Bush believes in this war - why isn't he donning the war bonnet and flying a plane as he has been trained to do?

As someone who despises much of the liberalism that came out of the 1960's, I can say that it I have complete apathy towards antiwar protestors who spat on our troops, passed the hash pipe, and praised those like Jane Fonda, receiving a most required a smack on the head. Unfortunately, it did not knock any sense into them.

Well, I guess if you say so. Who am I to doubt your word?

You don't have to humor me, Plaw. However, I, personally, think that the spitting, and Kerry throwing away his medals, and Fonda telling us to "get down on our knees and beg for Communism" embodies the generation and its message, and unfortunately, it has been passed on.

Now, Plaw, is that sticking to the topic(s) at hand? It seems more like something that "do(es) not addrsss [sic] the issue being discussed, but merely enrage those those [sic] being referred to and turn the discussion into a name-calling pissing contest."

Back to Afsanah:

Haha. That's laughable.

Mind telling me how you can delineate between a regular murder and a "far greater" one? How to we gauge which is which?

I mean, after all, wouldn't the Mullah's list of assassinations and executions against oppositions be considered a "far greater" murder(s)?

Back to Plaw:

It's actually about the sanctity of life, thanks.

Who says my country couldn't re-instate the draft tomorrow? Charlie Rangel has been pushing for mandatory/compulsory military service. In all honesty, it may not be such a bad idea.

On the same train of thought - when there was a draft, for example, in Vietnam, and other foreign wars, were there not those who supported the war even though they could be sent off to fight?

Because, after all, we know that men NEVER take responsibility when they Father children, right? [/sarcasm]

Pro-choice abortionists would be a spectacular example.

Don't we have a significant number of pro-choice men in America, too?


Kudos,
Double-J

What is this?

What is this? [/b][/quote] Muslim Fury Hits Pastries

That's for you to say. Just a few months ago the US bombed a village in Pakistan. Apparently they were only villagers, families. They all died together. And of course it is not the same. You aborting an unwanted pregnancy is a decision you make for your own life. Someone killing you and your family and kids is murder.

What children? The purpose is to prevent an unwanted pregnancy that would result in unwanted children. As far as I'm concerned I'm not a donkey so you put a burden on me and make me to carry it without having to decide for myself. I don't have a problem with letting a fetus live on its own. If it can't, it is too bad.

You for example said that SSO is not to be trusted with paying back when you are going to get retired. So you said they should let you have an account where you save the portion you have to pay to the SSO, so that you can decide for yourself, as if it is all about you. Little did you think about a child left on welfare or what would happen if you should have an accident and become disabled. How your little account is going to take care of you in that condition? How is it supposed to help a child left on welfare? You certainly didn't see that in your plan. So here, I made a perfect example with your own proposal, about those who are going to ruin the SSO. If I can't support a child, I'm not going to have one. My child hopefully wouldn't rely on any welfare, unless I die untimely.


Good then, since I began to enjoy it.

Read the answer for the two quotes above.

It wasn't directed at you, it was for others who might read my response to your post.

Your fine country is the result of immigration of intellectuals from all over the world. Look up the number of foreign scientists and see how many of them were students from other countries who got the US citizenship afterward. I wonder what happens if one day everyone realizes they better do something for their own country rather than escaping the problems and choose the easy route. That would be very heartwarming for me as well. I'll continue enjoying Danish pastries and care less for what Mullahs say. After all the main job of a mullah is talking and nothing more. Iran has never attacked its neighbors in the past hundred years, because people would never fight such wars. Yet it has fallen to be the victim of Iraq attacks backed with the support of European countries and the US and its military defense is almost ruined. What makes the US really nervous is not the possibility of WMDs, but the plan that Iran is going to sell the oil with Euro currency that would weaken the US dollar. But I guess the US always needs to find a reason to attack us anyway so WMDs are always good and if you didn't find any, you've given us a chance to give us this false freedom after all.

It is quite simple. Don't get an abortion if you think it is immoral. Keep your morals to yourself. That by no means is murder according to my morals, since it is a long way before a fetus becomes a human being. We can't suite everything according to your morals.

By my own morals. You are following Mullahs very closely according to my scale on murder. Still, this is my morals, so why that makes you worried? Sleep tight at nights, no biggie, I'm not God after all and my judgment is worth nothing, just the same as yours. :p

Granted, mistakes do occur in war. But as I say again, the killing of children and other noncombatants is not deliberate.

And again, aborting an unwanted pregnancy is a decision that is made for two people - one of whom can go on their merry, oftentimes selfish way, while the other is thrown into the medical waste bin, never to take another breath.

However you choose to rationalize it, an "unwanted pregnancy" is still a living human being.

Because, surprisingly enough, Social Security was never intended to be a social welfare program. It is supposed to be, and exclusively should be, and old age pension.

We have plenty of other tax dollars going to social welfare. Your sarcasm and example about "my little plan" is irrelevant.

If you can't support your child, there are plenty of social welfare programs, as well as charities and missions designed strictly for poor, unwed mothers. And, once you've given the child up for adoption after birth, you can go back to worrying about #1.

Though I suspect, oftentimes in the example you are citing, it would be a life of crime and/or drugs, unfortunately.


Surprisingly enough, save for the anarchists, these immigrants realized America was a land of opportunity, as opposed to the oppressive or unsuccessful economies they derived from.

And you can also look up how many of these people who now come and get their educations here either a.) immigrate back to their nations or b.) send their money back home, rather than put it back into the American economy. Similarly, it is quite interesting that many of them receive free tuition simply for being immigrants, while the tax paying citizens of this country have to scrimp and save and kill themselves attempting to put either themselves or their children through higher education.

Good.

Oh, yes, you poor victims. Because, after all, you hadn't been involved in plots to overthrow the Bahraini government, or supported embassy bombers, or slaughtered Mecca voyagers in Saudi Arabia.

Well, at least we'll have the oil.

So, by your token, we shouldn't prosecute murderers because we can't inject our morals upon society? :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I've already provided scientific proof (the point of which, apparently, has soared over some peoples heads) that a fetus, or whatever stage of development, is still a human being.

Why would it make me worried?

Oh, I don't know, because your nation would like to start an Israeli holocaust and possibly drive the planet into nuclear oblivion?

That old chestnut, I know.

Best,
DJ

What are you seeking by bombing houses? If it is not deliberate, I don't know what that might be.

The other never was breathing to begin with and was not a person, it doesn't matter how you try to put it. If it was a person and could breath, it could've lived on its own.

It is not. It is a living organism destined to become a human being if being taken care of. Is an egg a chicken? Not if a hen decides not to keep it warm. Your argument is as silly as calling an egg a chicken.

I pass on that. You do that for your children if needed. I don't bring children to this world, uless I want to take care of them.

Their countries suffer, either because of the sanction of the super powers or their interference in their internal affairs.
If you don't like them, send them all back home. I would appreciate one educated person along with hundreds of non educated people, because that one person is worth it. I would like to see chauvinism feelings like yours stray people back home. Kids in well-being countries now have it easy and all hate math and science. Most of the students who are worthy of receiving the scholarships in highly scientific fields are foreigners, mostly Asians.

I don't know where you get your facts, but it was actually Iranian pilgrims who were slaughtered in Mecca. On Jul. 31, 1987 - Security forces in Mecca battled with Iranians holding an anti-U.S. demonstration. 402 people, mostly Iranian pilgrims, are killed, 649 wounded.

About middling in other countries affair, I honestly can't say what our government does, just like what your government does its fair share to screw others.


So after all it would be a war for oil. It is good to hear that straight from the horse's mouth.


If we can prosecute murderers, we might start we those leading a war for oil. I still don't believe abortion is murder.

And I gave you my scientific explanation about egg and chicken. If it can't live on its own, it is not my problem. I shouldn't have to take care of anyone or anything if I don't wish to. If anyone likes to take care of them, they are welcomed to.

Being an aimed target of Israeli nuclear missiles, I'm not sure why I'm not worried. Silly me.

Funny, As-Sahab, which is Al Qaeda's media outlet, was located inside a plain looking building in a business district in Kabul I believe. US forces successfully bombed it into rubble, without damaging any other buildings or people.

Where is your proof that it doesn't breathe?

Humans in the womb have gills, and carry on respiration.

No. A chicken egg is simply a egg unless it is fertilized, just like a human sperm and egg are just sperm and egg until conception. After conception, however, it is a chicken and human, respectively.

And - they do have incubators for chicken eggs, you know. They don't need the hen to keep it warm.

Oh, yes, of course, because we know these countries (if you could call them that) would be utopias, with thriving economies and happy citizens! :rolleyes:

My chauvanism? Cite.

I suppose if you're basing it on my pro-life stance, then, gosh darn it, we've got quite a few chavanistic women in America too!

Example: TIS and Apple - you chauvanist pigs! :rolleyes:

Wow. I don't think I'll justify such a ridiculously unsubstantiated statement with a response.

Unlike China, with regimented compulsory education, in America, we give people the choice to pursue their interests.

I've heard the opposite - that it was the Iranians that initiated the violence and ended up killing more than a few Saudis.

Oh, how ignorance is bliss. :rolleyes:

You said that we would be warring with Iran over oil and currency. Why split hairs when, like all wars, there is booty to be gotten, the most obvious of which would be Iranian oil?

The spin is in, Afsaneh. I asked you specifically how you can justify injecting opinions about murder upon an accused murderer when he/she doesn't believe what he/she performed was wrong.

And your answer is? Spinning it to a war for oil.

Oh, yes, that was real Johns Hopkins/New England Journal of Medicine type stuff there.

"It doesn't breathe, and an egg isn't a chicken if the mother doesn't keep it warm."

Don't expect any Nobel Prizes for that didactic idea, Afs.



Well, they are pointed at you for a reason. :rolleyes:

On that same notion - by your answer, does this mean you would advocate a holocause and cleansing of the Israelis or the Hebrews in general?

Regards,
DJ

I feel that I've degraded the debate with your style, so I don't feel continuing that way. But I just have to add that when Iranians started the anti US demonstration in Mecca, Saudi Arabia being the great ally of the US at the time killed them all and you wouldn't hear it any other way that you've heard it before. After all, this is the leading country in screwing women's right and you easily ignore it because she has a pledge to sell her oil with the US dollar, so why mess with a puppet regime so friendly with the US anyway?

Back to the discussion, a fertilized egg can become a chicken either with help of a hen or machine. It also can be cooked, or left alone, and that doesn't make the egg a chicken.

I've far greater respect for my gender to think it is their duty to carry a fertilized egg, because you want to call a fetus a baby or a human being. A woman is not an animal that you make her carry a burden, nor an oven that you put things in there and take it back after a while. A fertilized egg is merely a potential baby given the privilege of a woman to carry it. A fetus doesn't breathe on its own, it gets the oxygen it needs like any other part of the body through blood. Pregnancy is a privilege that a woman gives a fertilized egg and it is a choice that she makes and anything shorter than that is screwing women's right, which I don't expect happening in the land of free.

Since you'd have to have the last word, I also add that I've no further contributions to make to this thread. :p

And it doesn't matter if it ruins your life and you ruin his/her life growing up through abusing/neglecting/generally hating it because of this.

By the way, Governor Rounds of South Dakota signed the legislation banning abortions today.