Hamas is claiming victory in the Palestinian election and indeed the sitting government has resigned. Since we all accpet the sovereignty of the election process where does this leave the Middle East??

Taking a positive spin, is this the first step in a move away from violence by Hamas by showing them that there is value in trying to achieve their objectives through the democratic process and not by military means??

Or on more negative spin, is this an endorsement of violence by the Palestinian people that Hamas will use to increase the tempo of its armed campaign??

Any thoughts??

Since Hamas believes in destroying Israel, this cannot bode well for peace in the Middle East. Nukes may be flying.

Well, for a "terrorist" organization, one wonders when the populace of that group realize that despite the flag waving and claims that it will "wipe Israel off the face of the map", they are simply another group of people in history that run around shooting guns, yell, and throw rocks at the "establishment"...only to turn out to be no better.

Besides, how practical is it to "wipe" a country like Israel off the map, as in their ideology of "taking back" all that of which they believed was theirs? Unless of course they become a military force(which they aren't and won't, at least while Israel still gets most of the American military aid) or worse, get hold of a nuclear warhead arsenal(which itself is impractical, since themselves would get literally baked along with their nemesis nationalists)....they will disapoint their most fanatic followers, and this won't make a serious impact 30 years from now.

Unless of course they decide to "declare" independence, which without the peace process would be fought as a major war, where hundreds of Israeli troops would die, while thousands and thousands of Palestinian soldiers/civilians would then perish as well, then consider if other states of the Arab and Middle Eastern world decide to join, along with a possible nuclear Iranian government in the future, then hell will literally break loose...

Man that democracy thing is a real bitch.

I don't think that Hamas has "won" the Palestinian election although I think that if the group is sincere in its desire to affect change through the political process it should be supported in doing so. However, I am skeptical as to whether Hamas has the wisdom, foresight and maturity to pursue peace with Israel through non violent means just as I am skeptical that the Israelis are willing to completely abandon their settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, go back to the pre 1967 boarders of Palestine and Israel and grant true freedom to Gazans (Israel still controls movement into and out of the Gaza Strip not to mention its airspace).
Also, I am not completely sure that the sucess of Hamas in this elections does not "bode well for peace in the Middle East." I believe that a Likud victory in the upcoming Israeli election will pose just as big a threat (if not bigger) to peace as a sizable number of seats won by Hamas in the Palestinian Legislature.
It looks like Hamas has won between 50 and 60 seats in the 132 seat Palestinian Legislature with Fatah taking between 60 and 65. The remaining seats were won by centre-left parties so it looks like some sort of Fatah/third party coalition (minority) Government will be formed.
The fact of the matter is that this election result will not reveal its true meaning until after the Israeli election is held in March. I only hope that Amir Peretz wins or basically anyone but Benjamin Netanyahu who is as great a threat to peace as Yasser Arafat ever was.

Ballots Triumph Over Bullets by: Mitch Potter of the Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_T ype1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1138229413057

This really puts my faith back in mankind :rolleyes: It shoudl be a very... um, interesting (to say the least) reign.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650788.stm

Islamic militant group Hamas has won a surprise victory in Wednesday's Palestinian parliamentary elections.
Preliminary results give Hamas 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, with the ruling Fatah party trailing on 43.

Yes, Hamas have won a substantial majority as well as the popular vote.

Now the world leaders - Western heads of state - have called for Hamas to drop their belief in the violent expulsion of Israel.

Leaving aside the hypocracy of warmongers Bush and Blair calling for Hamas to abandon violence, this makes no sense. The Hamas party ran on the "death to Israel" ticket, and they won. Now they should drop that policy? The reality is that most Palestinans have felt the effects of Israeli aggression and hate the Israeli state bitterly.

I'm not taking sides - both the PLO and Israel have committed pretty dispicable acts in the past - but I can certainly understand why the Palestinian people chose Hamas.

As they say in this part of the world Doc...The people have spoken...the bastards!!

Yup, I guess I jumped the gun (as did the T.O. Star) on my prediction. It now appears that Hamas has won a clear majority in the Palestinian Legislature. Most of what I said in my original post in this thread however, still applies. The most important outcome of the Palestinian election has not occurred yet and will only happen in March after the Israelis hopefully elect Amir Peretz and the Labour party. If Benjamin Netanyahu wins the Israeli election any attempts at peace on both sides will be thwarted by his idiocy, belligerence and hatred of all things Palestinian/Arab/Islamic. Go Peretz!

Yeah, gotta' love those "peace-loving" Palestinians. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I love those "'Peace-loving Palestinians'" the same way I love those "Peace-loving Israelis." :rolleyes:

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://www.gush-shalom.org/

http://www.palestine.org.nz/

http://www.pchrgaza.org/

http://www.phrmg.org/

It's Israel's land and has been since light hit the earth. Maybe you wouldn't mind if strangers came and camped out in your backyard and was bent on blowing up your family. I think Israel's been far too kind to these nuts, and look what they get back for gratitude. Does not anyone understand yet that these morons are bent on destroying everyone who's not Muslim, or is it just me??

Wow, Snake you're so open minded, and your posts reflect such a deep knowledge of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that it just amazes me. I think that your talents are being wasted in your current profession. The Palestinian and Israeli governments would pay top $ for an adviser with your political, diplomatic and verbal skills not to mention the United Nations should be knocking down your door. Please for the good of Palestine/Israel and for the good of humanity, use your talents for the good of the people and accept a position within the Israeli or Palestinian government. With advisers like you on their side Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs and Jews, Muslims and Christians and Jews will declare peace within a day and the world will have no problems. :rolleyes:
As for your comment on it being "Israel's land and has been since light hit the earth." I don't know where to begin on how to deal with the stupidty and contempt for reason expressed in this attempt at some sort of explanation. Maybe if you have the motivation or the desire to do some real research on this topic you'll change your mind but I doubt it.
Yes I would mind if "Strangers came and camped out on in my backyard and were bent on blowing up my family." Frankly I don't know how Palestine and the Palestinians deal with this every day. Maybe in your mind, Hamas is "Bent on destroying everyone who's not Muslim" but this is not so true for many, many others.
Also you seem to swallow everything that your daily paper and Fox News feeds you. Well if it's in print and its on Fox News it must be true right? :rolleyes:
I could attempt to prove to you that this issue is not as you see it by using facts, figures, and so forth but I am afraid that when faced with these you will revert to your "company line" position of "Israel being the shining light of humanity and Israelis being God's gift to mankind and Palestinians and Muslims being a curse on mankind." Hopefully you will come to the conclusion after having done much research using various media, that you are very wrong on this issue. Until then, God help you.

Peace In Palestine and Israel!
Peace On Earth!

If you want to talk intelligence, Mr. Canadian Lefty, yours is that of a zygote. Since you must resort to playground tactics by personal attacks, and obviously can't do anything other than open your pie-hole and insult as opposed to backing up your ludicrous rantings (my insult hurled at you is merely retaliatory), then why don't you go stick your head in the snow Up There and get a clue, EH? I won't battle wits with someone who's obviously only half-armed.

Snake, your ignorance is further exposed by your emotional responses and refusal to use common sense. I won't take your attack against my Country or my perceived political affiliation by you personally because I am taking into account the source. I know you feel bad that all the Muslims in the world have not been wiped out by American and Israeli nukes yet, but you do not need to take it out on others. Again, I will tell you that because you seem to refuse to fully read or comprehend my posts and resort to attacks against my nation I will not present the facts to you regarding this crucial issue. It would be a waste of my time to hold your hand on every single issue and nuance of this conflict because you seem to be unwilling or incapable to listen to anything that does not agree with your point of view. Keep watching the O'Reilley Factor reading the Washington Times and contributing to the 700 club, it seems to have led you to your unbiased, tolerant, non-racist, highly intelligent viewpoint so you should keep it up. God help you, you don't have a clue!

Yeah, we'll see about that when you're wearing a permanently orange afro. That's another thing about you (and some of your kind): you think you're soooo smart but you really can't see the forest for the trees. If being free of my "narrow-mind" means being like you, I'll stay the ignorant, narrow-minded moron you and your kind think I am. And I do appreciate being stereo-typed, because I've found it advantageous, particularly when dealing with the so-called intellectual elite (of which you obviously believe you chair).

I got better things to do, like check my ink pens for ink.
Good luck to your poor, poor country. :rolleyes:

Snake, again, insulting my country only proves your ignorance and I will not take it personally as of course you are not a member of the American cultural, politcal, social, financial or intellectual elite. Of course neither am I a member of one or all of those elites and this only proves that we can argue until the cows come home but our beliefs cannot sufficiently be translated into action so we cannot affect real change.

I have not stereo typed or pigeon holed you, I only call them as I see them so to speak. People should not be judged by their outward appearance or their background but by their words and actions. Your words and actions seem to reflect those of an Israel firster and it is absolutely your right to be one. I am not claiming the moral high ground by saying you have just as much a right to your opinion as I do. That you do have just as much a right to your opinion as I do is the beauty of being as privilaged as we are to live in the countries we do.

I believe you are wrong, and you believe I am wrong and therein lies the impasse. I am not going to change your opinion nor are you mine. I am not saying that we should agree to disagree or any of that bullshit I just think that statements like the ones you have made regarding Israel's supposed absolute dominion over Palestine/Israel are not conducive to rational discourse or to peace itself.

I hope that you don't think that I am anti-Semitic or anti-American. This is absolutely not the case as many of my associates are Jewish, I live in a predominantly Jewish neigbourhood, and many of my relatives are Americans.

As for Canada being a "poor, poor country" this is a very stupid comment but it warrants further examination. Yes Canada is not as "rich" as the United States of America but being the most wealthy country in the world, logically no country can have as much wealth as the U.S.A. However, the Canadian/American trade relationship is the largest of its kind in the world with over 1 billion dollars changing hands every day! Canada is a leading member of the G7 group of countries and has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Our population is close to 34 million people and our largest city (Toronto) has a population of over 6 million people. The following is a quote from the CIA World Factbook:

"As an affluent, high-tech industrial society, in the trillion dollar class, Canada closely resembles the U.S. in its market-oriented economic system, pattern of production, and affluent living standards...The 1989 U.S. Canada Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) (which includes Mexico) touched off a dramatic increase in trade and economic integration with the U.S. Given its natural resources, skilled labour force, and modern capital plant, Canada enjoys solid economic prospects. Solid fiscal management has produced a balanced budget...Exports account for roughly a third of G.D.P. Canada enjoys a substantial trade surplus with its principal trading partner, the U.S. which absorbs more than 85% of Canadian exports."

Other statistics from the site:

Canada's G.D.P. (purchasing power parity): 1.077 trillion dollars

G.D.P. real growth rate: 2.8%

G.D.P. per capita purchasing power parity: $32 800

In addition, the wealthiest Canadian; Mr. Kenneth Thomson is worth 22.03 billon dollars (2004)! In fact if you were to add up the total wealth of the ten richest Canadians it would total over 60 billion dollars (2004)!

Our "poor, poor" country does not need luck, we make our own luck and we're doing quite well thank you.

*Sigh* I just had to look back at this stupid thread, didn't I?? Guess it's a good thing I did as DJ likes putting words in people's mouths and twisting what IS and what ISN'T.

For the record, I attacked YOU, not your country. I'm sure Canada has some nice, appealing features...you're just not one of 'em. The reason I said, "poor, poor country" had nothing to do with my sentiments on Canadian wealth. As usual, you just don't get it. I said it, again, aimed at YOU, i.e., Canada is worthy of pity for having so-called "thinkers" like you residing there (and so is America for those of your ilk residing here). If you were Zambodian, I would've said, "Zambodian Lefty," and "poor, poor Zambodia" (I can't believe I'm wasting my time with this).

No, pal, your whole problem is you talk outta' both sides of your mouth. You talk about holding a "rational debate," but then you manage to look down your nose and revert to name-calling and putting words into people's mouths rather than backing up anything that spews out of your thoughtless hole. That's fine, dude, I really don't care. You're right: you're not mature enough to "agree to disagree," as I know that IS "b.s." to you.

I'm sure you'll have to get in the last word, as that seems to be your way, but I won't bother looking in again. I'm glad I did this time to set the record straight, although I'm sure most sensible folks here can see what you're trying to do with your twists and turns. That is what you're good at, isn't it?

Adios, DJ. God bless Canada!

I gotta admit Snake...you of all people should know that Canada is among the world's elite of industrial-wealthy powers of the "West" that includes Western Europe, America, Canada, and Japan(not western, but still it fits the criteria).

As for Israel and that mess, you all heard my opinion earlier, but as an American first and everything else second, I don't want to get involved personally with that bloody mess over there. Two nationalistic sides that both feel righteous, mostly in divine "sponsorship", who have done awful things and don't feel guilty about it.

But folks, answer me this. What will Hamas-in power do?

Jasani, no need to worry with God on your side! No wars for you guys, anyway.

Still, no matter how much people want to bite their lips, the temptation to get the last word in proves time and time again to be far too attractive.

Does the Bible not teach us anything?

"Canada is worthy of pity for having so-called "thinkers" like you residing there (and so is America for those of your ilk residing here)."

Hey, I love my country whoever lives here or not. Besides, we are a FAMILY. Yes people in it absolutely hate each other because of regional or sectionalistic rivalries, or worse especially because of ideological differences. Neverless, we still are an American family and we must stick together.

Remember Bill O'Reilly who said that Al Qaeda should "bomb" San Francisco? If I remember right, it was because they simply passed some ordinance against U.S. military recruiters in their schools(whatever S.F. was wrong or not to pass such a law by ballot, and mostly I think it was silly myself, neverless no Americans should be bombed or killed by terrorists just because they disagreed with someone else. Let me worry about my little spot in America, and let them in California run theirs).

This sniping is really doing a lot of good here.

Bottom line is that we need someone to step up to the plate (like Clinton did and like Carter did) and get the Hamas and Israeli leaders (Even if it is Bibi, who will now probably win in a backlash vote) and hole them up on some mountaintop until they reach some kind of an accord. Derspite the lack of oil this area could be a paradise, and a first class tourise desitnation if they fixed it up and made it safe. They have great beaches, religious sites, etc etc. and they are destroying themselves because each side believes God gave them the same piece of land --- at least thats what they say publically. We need some leadership here that I am afraid Bush cannot provide. Is there no statesman in the world who has the juice to force these to sides into some kind of truce?

The same Clinton who mediated that Oslo agreement which resulted in Atta being released from an Israeli prison?

Maybe Condoleeza Rice is the one who can bring these two sides together.


DS

Hey, Snake and I finally agree on something! I don't want to be dragged into Snake's spiral of rhetoric and non sensical gibberish so I won't respond to his reply to my last post. I had thought that we had at least reached some sort of common ground but I think Snake would rather blow that common ground to smithereens with American financed Israeli nuclear weapons.

Jokes aside, I agree with dontomasso. Sadly, whether it be the U.S., Canada, Palestine, Israel, the U.K. or most other countries, statesmanship is sadly lacking in the world today. Contrary to what some people may think, I believe that both sides the Palestinians and the Israelis want peace. Some on both sides want peace more than the others and some less, but the fact remains. Saying that "God gave the land of Palestine/Israel to the Arabs/Muslims or to the Israelis/Jews is an irrational, emotional tactic used by the dim witted to convince others of their cause." The fact is Israel is a reality and Palestine is a reality. Neither side is going to be driven into the sea as some would hope. Until the leadership on both sides whether belonging to Fatah, Hamas, Labour or Likud realizes that words are not enough and until some people stop desiring to see the opposing side as sub-humans there will not be peace in Palestine or Israel.

By the way Snake, Professor Al-Arian has not committed any terrorist attacks yet and my hair is still jet black.

The same Clinton who mediated that Oslo agreement which resulted in Atta being released from an Israeli prison?

Maybe Condoleeza Rice is the one who can bring these two sides together.


DS [/b][/quote]The same Clinton who tried to broker an agreement and got stabbed in the back by Arafat. The same Cliknton who The Late King of Jordan AND the Late Itzak Rabin called the most intelligent man ever to sit in the oval office.

But since he isnt available, maybe Condi should give it a shot. God knows her boss cant.

We don't want to miss a chance to take a shot at Clinton when we can, do we?

Ex-US Presidents are almost always accorded "statesman" status throughout the world, and many have worked successfully at the international level in trying to improve things.

Even Richard ("I am not a crook") Nixon had success in this area, and quite possibly did more for this country and the world as an ex-president than he did while in office.

As far as Ms. Rice goes, somehow I just can't see her being taken seriously by one of the sides here, if you catch my drift....

A woman as President will be hard for a lot of conservatives to swallow. A black woman President is just out of the question... for now.

I wasn't talking about one of the sides in the U.S.

Never said you were. I didn't even see your post.