Really, its embarrising that a country that used to be a plot device for the 80's LETHAL WEAOPN 2 as Neo-Nazi-like baddies with ole Apartheid....well, now okay with Gay Marriage, an issue for which Americans seem to have serious problems with.

Really, what is a logical argument against what is legally their Constitutional right?

The answer to this whole issue is simple. What has to happen is that the State will recognize what it calls "Civil Unions" whether they be between man and woman, woman and woman or mam and man. All divorce laws will apply to these people.

"Marriage" always was and still is an institution which comes out of religion. Thus if a particular religion does not allow "gay marriage" then gays will just have to go find some religion that does. Then they can have their religiou srvice and then go down to city hall to make it official --- or not --- depending on whether they are religious.

Same thing for straight people. They can go get "married" by the clerk of the court and also do it in Church.

The state would simply stop recognizing religious ceremonies as civil unions. Case closed.

Oh, right. Let's keep them **** out of Heaven. :rolleyes:

I think using the Bible, or the Church, or any other division of organized religion in a debate against Gay Marriage is just a poor excuse, and easy way to draw support to your side. Of course some people will find sympathy for religion.

But, the Bible IS NOT the official word of God. We will never know the official word of God. For all we know, he/she is gay. The Bible is just an interpretation of religion, and any passage denouncing homosexuality is all a matter of the writer's opinion. Besides, the Bible also views women as inferior's and object's at times... Why aren't all of the uptight Jesus-freaks protesting over laws making wife-battery illegal?

I think, for the time being, I will side with the factually-existent constitutional right over the possibly-non-existent and/or inaccurate religion.

I am gay but against gay marriage, for social reasons more than religous reasons.

Feel sorry for the adopted son who end up with two "dads". Prime target for any bullies in school.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and they are in the Bible - The Book of Exodus Chapter 20. That's pretty much the official word of God. There are also seven references in the Bible forbidding gay unions; also incest and beastiality.

You can make gay marriage legal by the laws of man, that's fine, but the Catholic Church will never recognize it. South Africa, I wish you well.

When constitution was written, I am sure no one had heard of gay marriages :p

No, but they heard of "The pursuit of happiness."

I am not against Gay marriages, I was just joking. But I think it will require a lot of modifications in the law to plug any loop-holes that may arise if we just modify the definition of marriage to apply to any two individuals. But what's the hurry, let it take a couple of years to finish the work. Better than discussing this for the next 50 years and not doing anything about it.
Since the topic is about comparing with South Africa, I would also like to mention that last year in India, a lesbian couple wanted to marry and filed a case. The judge rejected it saying that the (Indian) society has still not accepted homosexuality as normal. I think it is logical though. However in US, I think it is not such a big deal and people have accepted it for many years. What is stopping it to implement this legally? Same question raised by RRA... Any answers??

For one thing, an attempt by some to impose their standards of morality on others.

For another, precedent and convention. People always have trouble, in general, in accepting new and radical ideas.

Also, organized religion. Not just the Catholic Chirch, either.

We have gay-marriage for a while now, I`m not bothered with it.

If 2 people love eachother and want to get married, who am I stop stop them?
Many "famous" tv-personalities are openly gay, some of them are married.. nobody seems to have a problem with that.

About gay-parents having children... I don`t really have a problem with that.
Better to be raised in a family with 2 parents of the same sex that love their child, then some mom-father families that are total crap.
The will maybe be bullied with it at school, but homosexual people are so "normal" over here that I don`t think that`ll be a real big problem in a few years.

Just my 2 cents

I am 100% against Gay marriage. God made Man to intercourse with Women, and not for two individuals of the same sex to pretend they are enjoying it. Homosexuality is not natural. I have a feeling marriage between homosexuals will destroy the future of traditional marriages. How about marrying a cousin or a donkey?

Are gay couples even allowed to adopt? Wouldn't it change the kids personality? Behaviour at school? What about telling friends about their parents?

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and they are in the Bible - The Book of Exodus Chapter 20. That's pretty much the official word of God. There are also seven references in the Bible forbidding gay unions; also incest and beastiality.

You can make gay marriage legal by the laws of man, that's fine, but the Catholic Church will never recognize it. South Africa, I wish you well. [/b][/quote]No, the Catholic Church only recognizes the pedophiles they protect. Whether or not "god" "gave" Moses the ten commandments or not is a fairy tale.

Well, since men seem to be also having intercourse with each other, I suppose we could say that God made man to do that as well, couldn't we?

And I suspect that they're not "pretending" to enjoy it, but rather really are.

How will gay marriage destroy the future of traditional marriage? I don't see that happening, since maybe 90% or more of the general population is heterosexual.

Yes, in the United States gay couples are permitted to adopt. And as in any parent-child relationship, the parents influence the child's personality and behavior in school. But there's no reason to assume that the effect of that influence in the case of gay couples and their children will be a negative one.

And what about the kids telling their friends at school? It's only because some members of society have an intolerant view of homosexuality that could cause a problem here.

I will agree with you about one thing, though:

People should absolutely not be permitted to marry donkeys.

After all, donkeys are already abused enough when they are "un-naturally" mated with horses to produce mules. Why abuse them even more by mating them with people?

How is homosexuality "unnatral?" There are many species of animals which practice it. Is that unnatural? Is it natural for a woman to give a man oral sex but not for a man to give another man oral sex?? What about man on woman vs woman on woman?

Thats right. Anyone having sex with a donkey would make an ass of themself.

Thats right. Anyone having sex with a donkey would make an ass of themself. [/b][/quote] You beat me to it SC!

Very funny. It gives taking it up the ass a new meaning.

A newly promoted Captain was assigned to a post in Iraq.

On his first inspection he noticed a rather young and good looking donkey standing happily next to a rusty old jeep without an engine, and asked a Sergeant what the donkey was for.

"Well sir..", began the soldier hesitantly, "We're a very long way from civilization, and men have, er - um, needs, Sir..."

"What exactly do you mean, Sergeant. Spit it out, man."

"Well Sir... when the men get really desperate for a woman, they use the donkey."

"I see", replied the Captain with a cough. "If it keeps the men satisfied, I suppose it's OK with me".

When he had been at the outpost for about a month he noticed the donkey was missing and stopped a soldier as he walked past his tent.

"Tell me, soldier, where is the donkey tonight?"

"It's Private Smith's turn with the donkey this month, sir"

The Captain thanked him and went back into his tent wishing he had a woman.

The next month he heard the donkey neighing loundly and stopped the sergeant as he was passing his tent.

"Tell me sergeant, what's the donkey like?"

"Good as gold, sir. We'd be lost without him."

"Yes - but what do the men actually DO with it?"

"Do sir? The usual, sir, you know..."

"Yes, but what exactly?"

"Well...we just climb on and ride him to paradise, sir."

The Captain was almost beside himself with excitement, but managed to control himself and dismissed the sergeant.

After three months he was so desperate for a woman he ordered the sergeant to fetch the donkey. The Sergeant shrugged his shoulders and led the happy animal into the Captain's tent. The Captain dropped his pants, stepped onto a stool and fucked the donkey so hard it collapsed.

When he'd finished, he beckoned the Sergeant over and asked: "Is that how the men do it?"

"No sir," the sergeant said. "They men usually use the donkey to ride into town to the whorehouse."

Good one! I like that one.


Don Cardi

See what those poor guys in Iraq have to go through? :p

True, but then again, how do we know if that story about the donkey was planted or not?


Don Cardi

I think a definition of "natural" is in order here. There seems to be variety.

The word natural is derived from nature, correct?

I believe my penis was designed for two functions; elimination of liquid waste and procreation. That's the nature of the penis. To perform the procreation part it contains very sensitive nerves and lots of blood vessels.

The rectum was designed for elimination of solid waste. No sex organs in there.

I think you see where this is leading.

I think the hand was designed for something else, no sex organs there. Yet men seem to put it contact with their sexual organ for pleasure lots.

Same with the woman's mouth... but let's keep this PG.

So MC, by your definition, then, oral sex is un-natural as well.

May I also suggest, that by your definition, heterosexual sex while wearing a condom is un-natural, since the penis is not being used for one of the two natural purposes you mention, but merely for pleasure?

And are either of the above any less un-natural than homosexual sex?

And if they're all un-natural, which, if one accepts your definition, they are, are any of the three any more wrong or less wrong than the others?

Or is it possible that there are three natural uses for the penis:

1) The elimination of liquid waste,
2) Procreation, and
3) To provide physical pleasure

That would seem to me to be quite likely, since, after all, sex is fun.

This is becoming a really shitty conversation. :p


Don Cardi

To be seriously honest, I think it'll become legal in the United States someday. I mean Canada, the traditionally catholic/conservative Spain, Holland(and Belgium as well, I believe), and South Africa......its inevitable.

Gay/lesbian marriage, since 2001.
Gays/lesbians adopting children: not yet, probably because the Catholic party will be against it, despite of how half of their memebers feel. Maybe it will be aproved on federal level, but not on the level of the three substates within Belgium.

Pl and Salad,

You are both 100% correct. No argument here (sort of). But as this thread unravels.......if one believes in God and the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, then physical stimulation between the two, with any part of the body is natural and welcome. Kissing is a wonderful and bonding sensation. Anal intercourse or oral stimulation can have the same effect; total submission, physical and emotional love. The culmination of the physical exchange is the act of procreation. Condoms are not condoned by the Catholic Church because they prevent procreation. Masterbation is a sin, but yeah lots of us do it. Catholics are not born without sin and they sin their whole lifes, but that doesn't mean you don't stop trying to be good; it's a journey.

In conclusion, I don't expect non-believers to understand any of this, but I thought I'd share it.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and they are in the Bible - The Book of Exodus Chapter 20. That's pretty much the official word of God. There are also seven references in the Bible forbidding gay unions; also incest and beastiality.

You can make gay marriage legal by the laws of man, that's fine, but the Catholic Church will never recognize it. South Africa, I wish you well. [/b][/quote]The bible entails more than the 10 commandments. The commandments are a mere sliver in the some-odd hundred pages that make up the book.

And, as I already said, any passage forbidding gay unions is the word of the author. Not God. I would hope God doesn't say, "Well, you've donated a fair portion of your yearly salary to charity every year since you were 25, you kept an open mind about your peers no matter what, you've been an active and faithful member of the holy church since childhood, and you personally helped clean up Africa... But you're gay. Straight to Hell with you, shabbat shalom mother-fucker!"

Oh yeah?

Well I still say sex is fun, procreation or not. :p

Right up there with drugs and rock and roll (j/k about drugs).