Please excuse me if this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, but I am curious as to how Don Corleone was able to figure out with absolute certainty that Barzini was behind the fighting between the families and Sonny's death.

Did he do something in particular at the meeting since Vito had mentioned to Tom "I didn't know until this day that is was Barzini all along."?

It seems to me that since Vito had the politicians in his pocket, he held the power and not Barzini.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Barzini tips his hand when he intervenes at the meeting accusing Vito of being unwilling to share his political connections with the other familes and then goes on to say that surely this is not an act of a friend. If Tattaglia was really the one who was behind Sollozo and the drug deal then he would have been the one to make those assertions about Vito. So it is obvious by Barzini's remarks and his reaction that he ( Barzini ) was the one really behind it all.


Don Cardi

Don Cardi pretty much summed it up, but just to expand on his answer a bit... The way I see it, up until that meeting, Vito knew that the Tattaglias were backing up Sollozzo. So when Sollozzo comes to Vito and asks him for political protection, etc.. He knew that Tattaglia was in on it. Hence, when Vito gets gunned down, everyone assumes it was Sollozzo and/or Tattaglia who did it. Later on at the meeting, Barzini speaks up and says that Vito had all the politicians in New York and he didn't share them. Now, why would Barzini even care about that unless he stood to profit himself from the Sollozzo deal? Vito knew that "Tattaglia was a pimp"... probably not capable of masterminding such a huge deal, so there had to be somone else behind the scenes, manipulating the deal - Somebody more shrewd and sophistocated than the pimp Tattaglia. When Barzini speaks up at the meeting, he gives himself away.

(I hope that made sense.)

On a somewhat related note.. Tell me what you think of this:

I was thinking about how Sollozzo and Bruno Tattaglia knew not to trust Luca Brasi when he comes to talk to them, and they end up killing them. My theory is that Barzini had a hand in that, too. Notice how Barzini is at Connie's wedding at the beginning of the film. I bet he saw Luca there and realized he was loyal to Vito and wouldn't betray him. So, when Luca comes to the Tattaglias and pretends to be unhappy with the Corleone family, Barzini probably tipped them off that he was lying.

I realize it's a stretch of the imagination, but think about it.

I dont really think it had anything to do with the wedding.Everyone knew Luca would always be loyal to the Don,and when he all the sudden wanted in a diffrent family,alarm bells went off.I would assume they all knew that well before the wedding.

Recall that, at the beginning of the meeting, Vito says he wants to "thank Don Barzini for helping me to arrange this meeting." But Barzini isn't acting like Vito's Little Helper. He sits at the head of the table (and is the only guy smoking a cigarette, not a cigar like the "Moustache Petes"), is the first to reply after Vito's speech, and characterizes Vito's refusal to help Sollozzo and Tattaglia as "not the actions of a friend." And, as soon as Vito says he's willing to do anything to make peace, Barzini jumps in: "Then it is agreed: The traffic in drugs will be permitted and Don Corleone will give it protection in the East." Did you hear Vito or anyone else propose that? He showed his true colors, and Vito recognized them.
The only surprising thing here is that Vito didn't see Barzini's hand before the meeting.

As for Luca being killed:
As soon as Vito said no to Sollozzo, he figured he had to kill Vito to get his way. Period. Luca never had a chance because Tattaglia and Sollozzo had planned to kill him as soon as they decided Vito had to go. By killing Luca, they'd get rid of the Corleones' top enforcer--and by sending the dead fish at the appropriate time, they'd administer a body blow to Sonny and the others.

Always a great topic.

Just a cinematic note: When Vito stands up at the meeting, note how the candleabra-lights behind Vito form a sort of halo. Perfectly positioned by FCC. And when Vito and Tattaglia embrace at the end of the table, there is another chandelier halo over his head. Nevermind the oranges being symbolic, this use of the lights can symbolize many things. For your imagination.

Note: the DVD format cuts some of the lighting off. The VHS format provides a higher picture and all the light is captured.

First of all, one must assume that ALL the Family Heads would have been invited to Connie's wedding. And even if Barzini had been the only one in attendance, he would not have had to 'see' Luca there in order to know how loyal he was to Vito. Luca had been at Vito's side for many years prior to this day and I'm sure that all the Families and their leaders were well aware of the relationship.

Second...once Vito utters his famous line, "...it was Barzini all along...", we know right there Barzini was behind everything from the beginning. Sollozzo (who was backed by Tattaglia who was backed by Barzini); the killing of Luca; the assasination attempt on Vito's; the attempt on Michael's life which resulted in Appolonia's death; the killing of Sonny.

Vito is telling us in that car that Barzini not only had a hand in it, but masterminded all of it from Day One.

Really...the only thing Barzini EVER did wrong was to underestimate Michael Corleone.

Apple

I think Sollozzo intended to kill Vito only because he saw that his son was hot for the deal.


Yes, Barzini matermined everything. He encouraged and supported Sollozzo's attempt on Vito's life. He sent his henchmen to do away with Sonny as well as being behind the attempt on Mike in Italy.

I knew "it was Barzini all along". My contemporaries will understand why.

Richard Conte was an actor of at least some note at the time, and his role in the film received some publicity.

When I saw him in his first scene, at Connie's wedding, I said to myself "Oh...That's Richard Conte."

I knew he had to have a larger role than that. I just waited to find out what it was.

Well said my friend. To add to what you have said I believe that it was for several months that Luca was courting the Tattaglias for a position in thier family. This may have been enough time for Barzini to check Luca's real intentions out. Perhaps Paulie had somehow gotten wind of and informed them of Luca and Vito's plan. Let us remember that Connie's wedding takes place late summer/ early fall, Tom goes out to California immedeatly after the wedding to get Johnny the part in the movie and upon his return it is decided that a meeting would take place with Sollozo. This meeting had to take place in the fall at the latest and therefore Paulie was still around. Both the Don and Vito get hit near Christmas, so this leads me to believe that over those several months Luca had been trying to get a meet with Bruno Tattaglia and must have been talking with lower echelon of the Tattaglia family. Of course Barzini was a smart Don, and knew of Luca's loyalty to Vito. Barzini had to know of Luca's role in going after the Capone men, and single handedly taking out the Irish gang years earlier. Barzini knew all along that Luca was extremely loyal to Vito and therefore from the very first time that Luca sent word to The Tattaglias that he was no longer happy in the Corleone organization, Barzini definately smelled a rat and over time probably suggested to the Tattaglias that they should allow Luca to get a bit comfortable with meeting them and then just take him and Vito out around the same time.


Don Cardi

the subject of this topic has always bothered me. vito is always seen as this wise and street-hardened don who's been through everything and has seen it all. the move he makes by sending luca to tattaglia and sollozo is something fredo wouldn't even be stupid enough to attempt. think about it. vito has just turned down sollozo and tattaglia's offer to cover for his drug business, so it's not like they're on the best of terms. now all of a sudden luca brasi, who's been don corleone's most fierce and loyal killer for many years, is unhappy with the corleone family and wants to join the people who vito just turned down. until sollozo approached the corleones no one is the family had ever heard of him, now all of a sudden the right-hand man wants to join forces. did vito honestly expect them to just welcome luca in with open arms? even if they didn't kill him and let him into the family, i'm sure they would have kept extremely close tabs on him for quite some time just to be sure he truly was out of the corleone family, so how's he supposed to get in touch with any corleone men? my guess is when vito and michael died, they went straight to hell and had to suffer for all eternity by having luca and rocco shove large, cumbersome objects up their ass for sending them on suicide missions.

You make good points. However, as pointed out by Sollozzo to Tom...

"Let's face it, Tom, and all due respect, the Don, rest in peace, was slippin'. Ten years ago could I have gotten to him?"

Also, as he reiterates at the 'Barzini' meeting much later, Vito truly doesn't trust the drug business. Unlike Santino, he doesn't let $$$ be a factor in his decision.

What Vito (and Sonny) does during and immediately after the initial meeting with Sollozzo pretty much sets the premise for everything that is to follow. Had any one thing been handled differntly, then it could have affected the entire story.

So you see...Puzo apparently knew what he was doing because here we are still talking about it 30+ years later.

Apple

I agree it might seem a bit obvious at first, but its not completely unfeasable that Luca would want to change sides. After all, the drugs business was big money, and everyone knew it. If Luca disagreed with Don Vito's decision to stay out of it, and wanted to make himself a fast buck, its not beyond the realms of possibility that he would defect over.

On the subject of the meeting of the families. It did always puzzle me a bit how Vito knew from that meeting that it was Barzini who was behind the whole thing. During the meeting, I'd sort of assumed that Barzini was acting as a kind of chairman, and that he was trying to mediate between Vito and Tattaglia (although obviously more biased towards Tattaglia). It wasn't really apparent straight away from what he'd come out with, that it was Barzini pulling the strings. But then I'm not a highly experienced and knowledgable Mafia Don, and Vito was!