At its peak, how many members and associates did Chicago outfit had and how strong it was?And what about comparing with the newyork families back on those days?

There used to be a poster here with knowledge of the Outfit who stated that they kept their membership low and that they never had more than 75 members. Even though that poster is ousted now I think, to me a lot of what he said made sense. I believe there are also sources who stated that they had as many as 300 members. Another figure given by as I remember an old poster on the old RD forum was 150 members in the 1970s, after the Outfit under Aiuppa started using the traditional initiation ceremony. There's also a 1983 chart showing the inner-core of the Outfit numbering about 180 people, but some listed weren't Italian.

The Outfit never went over 100 made men but unlike the other families,the Outfit had more associates (They had a crew in san diego until the 90s,in California and was the major force in las vegas) that in some cases had the same power and respect of a capos.

Thanks,but why keep the membership low?

So was outfit stronger than the Lucchese or Colombos?

Chicago was more selective as far as who was made, hence the lower number of cooperating witnesses. At their peak, they probably never numbered more than the smallest New York family now, not to take anything away from their power.

Why so, Tony Spilotro at 33 y was send to Vegas for protect the Golden Jew and was only a street thug ?

At the peak of its power, I would say that the Outfit may have had anywhere from 150 to 200 made men.

Huh? He was already made and had proved himself countless times.

But apart the M&M murder what done for gain power on vegas ?

They wanted an 'enforcer' who could keep people in line and protect the casinos. The psychopath Spilotro was the perfect candidate at the time.

Guy came up under DeStefano, Alderisio, Inserro. One of those rare cases of a young guy proving himself at an early age.

yeah,he was a great choice, the moron brought the heat down on aiuppa, Lombardo, cerone, he was the worst nightmare for the outfit, broke all the rules nothing but a low life thief, and the outfit should have whacked him years before they did, his brother was a punk-ass wannabe with no brains.

As some of the posters said, during its peak, which was between the mid 1950's and early 60's, the Outfit had rather small membership compared to the Genvoese or Gambino crime families in NY. But back in the period between the mid 1930's and 40's, I believe that the organization had quite large membership because by that time many new members were welcomed into the criminal brotherhood and on top of that many old members were still alive.

300 Made men at its peak

During their peak I think the organization, made men + associates, was just as big, if not a little bigger, as the 3 smaller NY crime families.

You've got to remember that they had a lot of territory..

Well, I'm sure they put him in charge so just that could happen. They're criminals, not fortune-tellers.

According to Jimmy Frattiano, Jack Dragna told him Chicago has "three hundred guys". This was around 1953. However, it is not specified whether these are made guys or just people working for the organization.

that.s true snakes, however you have to admit they should have had someone in charge of him other than joey Lombardo, the guy needed a short leash.

An FBI report from the early 1960s also says around 300 guys, but it includes a lot of inactive members.

It also includes people of non-Italian descent like gus alex, lenny patrick , etc. It's touchy. They were part of the Outfit but not Made Members. IMO they were part of the overall Outfit and should be included in the overall scheme of things.

This confusion comes from the fact that during its peak, the Outfit obviously wasnt your traditional cosa nostra organization not untill the mid 70's. Dont get me wrong, yes they had made guys but there wasnt any particular difference between a Italian made guy and the so called non Italian members and obviously few of the main examples were Guzik, Alex, Yaras or Patrick.

In the 1960s they had a crew in las vegas,San Diego and Los Angeles and even a crew in nebrasha led by carmine dibiase.
I think that was 100-200 between italian and not italians.

No, the report Faithful is referring to does not incluse non-Italians.

The Outfit should be considered an Italian cosa nostra family from the 1970's, maybe up untill now.

Many non-Italian members were considered as actual "made" members within the organization because previous the 1970's there was literally no induction ceremony. So how you gonna make a difference between "a tap on the back and you're with us" on Italian person or tap on the back to a non-Italian person? It doesnt make sense.

The Italians had their own so-called society within the organization but during the Outfit's peak, on 90% of the big mob meetings around the Chicago area, non-Italians were also included. The Italian faction of the Outfit had their own group mostly because to maintain the contacts with their "relatives" from other crime families from around the country. In the old days, it was very hard for a non-Italian Outfit guy to hold contacts with other Italian crime families, although Gus Alex was once a contact man between some of the east coast Mafia bosses and the Outfit.

If I were you guys there is a guy still kicking I hope who is an authority on Chicago outfit. His name is John Bender or Binder I forget which a cool dude. He used to be on the discovery channel on the Chicago mob. His nick name is Westside Jack. He was also an Amature soccer player.

Ask him if he ever shot a tommy gun with live ammunition. Then ask him how acturate are they with live ammo.

I am sure you can find him on face book. Why not put your questions directly to him. I am very sure he knows all the answers without have to google them from bullshit sources.

Toodoped, there are informants from the sixties that say that say that you can only become a full fledged member of the Outfit if you are Italian. They do also say that a very select few, like Gus Alex, command the respect that a made member gets but can never hold any type of leadership position in the Outfit.

Whether or not the Outfit had a ceremony before the 1970s, there was absolutely a distinction made between Italian members and non-Italians. Guys like Guzik or Humphreys were high in the organization and had a lot of clout (which was rather unique to the Outfit) but they were never considered members in the formal sense like the Italians. They could be leaders in one sense but never part of the formal hierarchy.

You guys are right. Individuals like Humphreys or Guzik were not members of the National La Cosa Nostra organization anmd they could've never become leaders of the organization BUT I believe that they were members of the actual Outfit. What ever happened within the Outfit, these guys had their opinion and vote on almost everything. Non_Italian associates within the New York mob never had that experience with the Italians.

Since the formation of the Outfit, they always had their own so-called "commission" and there was always one place for a non-Italian boss, Guzik, Humphreys and Alex.

It didnt matter if Cerone or Prio had involvment in some union, by the end of the day Humpreys had the last word on all union problems. Previously, Guzik was the main guy regarding all gambling operations in Reno, Nevada or in Florida. These guys were not some front men such as Louis Romano or someone else for that matter.There are countless wiretaps from Humphreys. Read them. He's the most misterious guy if you ask me.

There are reports where Humphreys placed Cerone in order or Alex telling Messino and Gagliano to go to hell. There are even reports where informers say that Alex "was all about the organization". Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras were spreading their operations wherever they wanted. When Patrick became a rat, he knew quite a lot of stuff for an "associate" regarding the Outfit's actual hireacrhy and money flow. There are a lot of things unclear regarding the Outfit and that is why i love writing about it

In total agreement with you there, Toodoped. It's important to distinguish between members of the Outfit and members of LCN.

Alex was actually part of a ruling panel in the early seventies with Aiuppa and Accardo before Aiuppa officially took over as boss around '73 or '74. That's the only time I've ever heard of any non-Italian being in a leadership position within LCN, although he didn't directly control any made guys. Alex was mainly a political contact and supplied advice to Aiuppa and Accardo in those areas. I think Maishe Rockman was a sort of unofficial consigliere for the Cleveland mob in the seventies and eighties, too, so Alex may not be completely alone.