MR. OINTINO: Mr. Barnes, you have made
a statement that the supplier who was determined to be an informant named Carmine Pugliese, you decided to terminate this individual?

THE WITNESS: Yes. sir.
MR. DINTINO: Did the Council seek permission from anyone to terminate this individual, outside of your own council?

THE WITNESS: No, we didn't. We didn't require supervision from anyone.
We weren't subjected to any intimidation by any outside group_

MR. DINTINO: Do you know if he was connected to any of the seven Hafia families in New York City?
THE WITNESS: We didn't know. We werent
interested.

HR. DINTINO: Your main supplier Madonna. was he connected to any of the seven Mafia families in New York City?

THE WITNESS: I think so.

MR. DINTINO: What family?

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I have heard
him mention names, but I just don't remember any of them at this time.

MR. DINTINO: Did your Council have any inter- action with the seven .mafia families in New York City?
THE WITNESS: No sir
MR DINTINO:You worked completely independent
WITNESS:Yes, sir.

MR DINTINO:Now, in the Harlem area, even though you were involved in heroin, the other vice activities, such as prostitution, lottery. bookmaking, loan sharking, were they controlled by Black organized crime. or were they controlled by the Mafia families in the Harlem area?

THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, it was Black
controlled.
MR. DINTINO: In other words, you had complete control of the Harlem area. and that Blacks controlled
the vice activities in the Harlem area?

THE WITNESS: Y e s .
MR. DINTINO: Did you extend outside the Harlem area, particularly in narcotics trafficking?


THE WITNESS: Well. among the Council members with whom i was associated. one of our Council members operated in Brooklyn.. and another one operated in the bronx.

MR. DINTINO: One~ last time: Was there any interaction between you and the, Council and the Mafia families in New York City?

THE WITNESS: When you use the word "inter-raction"?
MR. DINTINO: Did you get permission from them to do anything?
THE WITNESS: No. we didn't need permission.

MR. DINTINO: Did they operate in Harlem in anyway?
THE WITNESS: No. not to my knowledge.
HR. OINTINO: Did they ever?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, at one time they did.
MR. DINTINO: Whai: year are you talking about?
THE WITNESS: I think there was a gradual
changing of hands beginning in the '60·s.

MR. OINTINO: Would you characterize that
the seven Mafia families, at this time. would be appre- hensive about operating in Harlem?
THE WITNESS: I don't know whether they would be apprehensive. I think that they would probably conclude that it wouldn't be a sound business decision t.o be:: involvud in Harlem because many of the Blacks in Harlem operate the area for themselves.

MH. DINTINO: Okay, sir, thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
I would like to ask you one question: Knowing
the background of the Mafia, how do you account for the fact that they didn't intimidate the Council or your operations and try to move in?

THE WITNESS: I think the best response I could offer would be that thay probably concluded that the fox isn't worth the chase, and they decided to stay out.
THE CHAIRMAN: Why wasn't tho fox worth the
chase?

THE WITNESS: I think that the obstacles would have been created because the Blacks felt that Harlem, in a sense, belonged to them, and I think that they wore willing to fight for the territory.
I think that the organized crime people
wanted to--they wanted to earn from the activities in
a territory, but I don't think that they wanted to go back to the violence of the Prohibition-type era, and I think that is what they would have been confronted with.

THE CHAIRMAN: In short, there would have been warfare?.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir·.