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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7402
03/27/04 11:23 PM
03/27/04 11:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
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1. Ifyou havent noticed, Tom comes back in. Why exactally he was "out" is a matter of debate for some people, there are numerous diffrent reasons.
2.Tom and Micheal both know of it, but they didnt really want people like Geary to know right then.
3.Again, Tom came back in. Micheal knows it was somebody on the inside, but he doesnt know exactally who yet. The other Italains probably wouldnt approach Tom because, like you said, he isnt a Sicillian. But neither is Roth.
4. There is a lot that can be considered "towards the end". Are you talking about Mama's funeral where Fredo is crying his eyes out? I would say Tom feels sorry for him, partly because he lost his mother(and a lot of people assume Fredo was her "special" child) and partly because he knows w/ Mama gone, Fredos days are numbered.
I hope this has helped, and Welcome.
If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7403
03/27/04 11:41 PM
03/27/04 11:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8
GangstaBlac
OP
Associate
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OP
Associate
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8
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Originally posted by Don Sonny Corleone:
4. There is a lot that can be considered "towards the end". Are you talking about Mama's funeral where Fredo is crying his eyes out?
I hope this has helped, and Welcome. I was refering to the very end right before the scene when Tom meets with Michael and Rocco and Neri are hanging around. Tom is on his way but he stares at Fredo while he is in the boat fishing. BTW, that meeting with Michael is interesting also. I mean, at this point, Michael is strictly business. He doesn't seem to care that Tom has been nothing but loyal to the family but Michael is cold, even talking in Sicilian to Tom which to me was a sign of disrespect. It makes one feel sorry for Mr. Hagen...........,
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7405
03/28/04 07:02 PM
03/28/04 07:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
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Bear in mind that Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. He was "out" near the end of GF because, as Michael said, "you're not a wartime consigliere." He had failed to see the plot that resulted in Sonny's murder. "Besides," said Michael, "who's a better cosigliere than my father?" But when Vito died, Tom came back "in"--temporarily.
In Nevada, Tom was Michael's "legitimate" lawyer. He knew about the deal to buy into the Tropigala(sp?) because that was a semi-legit deal. But as you saw, he wasn't included in the Roth negotiations. The look you saw Michael and Tom exchange when Geary mentioned the Tropigala deal was probably a signal that they thought something was going wrong, that Geary would put the squeeze on them.
Michael meant it when he said that, right after the Tahoe shooting, Tom was "the only one I can trust." Michael gave him all that BS about keeping things from him because "you're my brother and I love you," and Tom practically collapsed with gratitude. Michael was playing him like a violin. As soon as Mike came back from Cuba, he was treating Tom like dirt.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7407
04/01/04 01:39 AM
04/01/04 01:39 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
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Originally posted by Krlea:
Do you think that Tom agreed with the decision to kill Fredo? Is that why he is staring at him, as in a regretful way? Welcome, Krlea! Tom may have regretted his role in Fredo's pending death. When Michael returned from Cuba, the first thing he asked Tom was, "Where's my brother?" He then told Tom to tell Fredo, "Tell him I know Roth mislead him..." etc. But Tom was smart enough to know, then and later, that Michael never, ever gave a pass to an enemy or to someone who tried to harm him. Tom must have known that he was being used to lure Fredo back to Michael so that Michael could get more info out of him. Tom also must have known that Fredo was a dead man after that. So, that regretful look may have been Tom's acknowledgment of his own role.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7412
04/03/04 02:03 PM
04/03/04 02:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8
GangstaBlac
OP
Associate
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OP
Associate
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8
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Originally posted by olivant:
that Tom was somehow responsible for letting the cat out of the bag.
- it just reinforced Mike's belief that Tom was not all that Vito thought he was cracked up to be. Interesting...,however, it had to have been Tom that put the cat back in the bag by having Senator Geary get set up with that prositute in Fredo's hotel........,
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7413
04/04/04 03:13 PM
04/04/04 03:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
Krlea
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
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For question 1, Why was Tom out?; I am going to quote La Signora di Fucile. I loved her theory to this question when it was posted awhile back. Although Tom did make mistakes, I do not think he was out because of a lack of respect from Michael. I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her. I don't think it's any of these reasons, I too Constanzia have pondered over this section of the book for many hours, but I too, as Tom did put on my Sicilian cap, and with some helpful objectives from my Don (my father) I have came up with a different perspective, it is, of course, purely of my opinion. Tom may not have been the best of consigleri's druring the war but he was never the less good. Michael did love him as a brother, very much so, he was in awe of him, but he had to seek his revenge on Carlo, he did not blame his brotehr Tom, he blamed Carlo, pure and simple. He had to get Carlo close enough to be certain, and to get him close without him smelling a rat he used the excuse that Carlo came from Nevada and therefore he would know the place and would be best as Mike's right hand man,. But think about it, Mike's sicilian, and both Tom and he are very clever people, why ditch Tom for Carlo? He needed to lure Carlo into a false sense of security, he couldn't afford for Carlo to fuck up his plans in this very tricky move. So keeping Tom in the dark and telling him infront of Carlo and Neri made his responses real, raw and felt, Carlo would then be at ease to know he was not being taken for a ride by Michael.
Sorry it was such a long answer but I just thought I should share my thoughts. Good question though!
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7414
04/04/04 07:59 PM
04/04/04 07:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
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It really is a huge problem with GF III that Tom Hagen is not in it, because quite clearly, much of the plotline towards the end of GF II is intended to set up a potential conflict between Hagen and Michael later on, and then when we get to GF III, that all goes out the window and they just say, "Tom Hagen? Oh, yeah, him. He died." FFC should have done whatever it took to get Duvall back in as Tom Hagen, or failing that, maybe even recast the part (Michael Moriarity would have been a possible alternate Hagen - see the pic). IMO the conflict between Hagen and Michael was always intended by Puzo and FFC to be the main theme of GF III. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.davidderex.com/images/MichaelMoriarity.jpg)
"You did good."
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Re: Tom Hagen Questions......,
#7415
04/04/04 08:44 PM
04/04/04 08:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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I know what you mean Enzo. I do like Tom and GFIII would have been much better with him. I like understand the comment, "and Tom, oh yea he died". I feel that way about the Vincent character, "Oh yea, and by the way here's Vincent, Sonny's illegitimate son, let's make him the Don.  TIS
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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